So What? A presentation of conclusions and recommendations to our Bubble.

On March 4th Dave and I made a presentation to a group as part of a lecture series in Redwood City.  We were asked to present some of our conclusions from our Listening Tour Project.  Below is the text from our presentation:

[What we did/intro:]

 

Peter: Thank you for being here this evening. And thank you Cal, Liz, Allison and Ron for putting on these Speaker Series events. We have in store for you what we hope will be an interesting, thought provoking and maybe a little bit entertaining presentation.

 David: the flow of our remarks will be:

1. to briefly remind you of the context of our listening tour - the what and the why.
2. To share several themes and the answers to several questions we set out to answer
3. Wrap up with the “so what” which takes the form of what can each of us do to make a difference in our divided country...how can we get out of our bubbles, help move things positively forward.

Peter: What we did:

• You may have noticed the slides cycling on the screen.
• These are some photos from the listening tour Dave and I took to Wisconsin over three weeks in October last year.
• We drove Dave and Leslie’s lovely RoadTrek RV to Wisconsin - first night in Wyoming. Second night in Madison. And at the end a similar sprint home after an overnight at Carleton College in Northfield, MN where Abby is a student.
• In Wisconsin we visited five parts of the state -- up north, Madison (home of the Flagship University and Capital), Milwaukee, Rock County a region south of Madison where Janesville is located, and the Racine/Kenosha area in the south east corner of the state just north of Chicago.
• In total we conducted 31 in-depth interviews -- each taking 60 - 120 minutes. Most of them we prearranged through connections of many sorts -- characters in books we had read, friends, friends of friends, etc. We also had some spontaneous conversations.
• Each night we spent in our RV -- staying at RV parks of one flavor or another -- from gorgeous parks on Lake Michigan to Elks Club parking lots to Flying J truck stops.
• We recorded each conversation. And we wrote them up and added them to a blog we kept on-line that recorded the project from conception through to today.
• We’re in touch with the people we met, with some more than others. All of the conversations were very civil and informative.
• Here is a copy of the printed out blog -- about 250 pages.

David: Why we did it, why Racine, our Preparation:

• About a year ago there was a spontaneous decision made by a whole bunch of people, including Joe Simitian locally and others we reference to try to figure out “WHAT HAPPENED?” and go to places that voted for Trump to talk with people.
• We did that too. JoAnn McMahon’ living room and Deb Pritchard started it off for us.
• Could have gone almost anywhere in U.S. Hold up map.
• Peter suggested 3 places; Spartanburg S. Carolina, Columbus, Indiana and Racine Wisconsin; he was familiar with all. I researched; all voted for Trump. All had relatively high poverty rates, all SHOULD HAVE been blue-collar “traditional” Democratic!
• I vetoed Spartanburg because I thought that race would be about all that we could see. Peter vetoed Columbus because he just knew too many people there. We would wind up only talking to his friends (this is hard to get away from....) That left Racine.
• As soon as we decided things started popping up.
• Foxconn (mfr. Iphones in China etc.) decided to build big plant with huge corporate welfare subsidy from the state, in Racine.
• We learned that Ana Dyer’s uncle was a recently retired Evangelical Pastor who built the largest Evangelical church in Racine and was, of course a Social Conservative. I called him and found him warm and enthusiastic about the project. He helped us a lot.
• We learned about Janesville and the shut down of a huge GM plant in Paul Ryan’s hometown.  
• We learned about the book Evicted, about poverty in Milwaukee; a book so significant that it made both Bill Gates and Barack Obama’s reading list for 2017. We think that we read it first!
• We read a LOT of books.

Peter:

For those of you who have not read the blog from cover to cover (and don’t worry, I think I can count the number who have on one hand)... or didn’t come to our UUFRC sharing, we’ll each share one of the highlights from our experience and the interviews:

David, you go first:

David:We spent a lot of time before we left trying to figure out what questions to ask and in what order. After we got there the questions just seemed to fit an organic pattern, asking about their history and background; both to gain perspective and trust and our consistent final question. Peter often referred to it as the “Bonus Round.” It was: “If you had a magic wand and could make one change, just one thing, what would it be:” The answers covered several areas but one thing really stood out. EVERYONE was thoughtful and reflective. Only a couple of people answered right away. I was really taken by the amount of effort people put into getting their answer right. It built my respect for our interviewees.

Peter: 

I was expecting us to find strong, offensive opinions -- the angry white male, Trump voter, NRA lover. With only two exceptions we found people who, despite their specific views, were wishing for reasonableness. In a variety of ways they expressed frustration with Madison and Washington. How the two sides wouldn’t listen to each other and reach “common sense” legislation. Republicans expressed frustration with Paul Ryan, Democrats conceded that it was time for a reset in Wisconsin. The two exceptions were deeply engaged in Republican politics --

 

Mary Felzkowski a state assemblywoman with hardline, bulldog, it's always the democrats fault

 

Fritz Rench One of the founding fathers and long time board member of the Heritage Foundation who patiently explained to us about Trump’s integrity and why he remains “cautiously optimistic.”

 

I drew the conclusion from this is the Americans (including Fritz) we spoke with:

1. Are genuinely frustrated with the political gridlock.
2. And Don’t trust winner-take-all politics.

But enough of these summary comments. We can come back to specific interviews in the questions later if you’d like. In the meantime, let’s get on with the fresh material. Dave? Why Trump?

[Why Trump?]

David:  

There we were, after our intense “Evangelical Tuesday” (8 hours straight through with multiple Evangelicals, including time while riding in the car and through lunch) and a restful night at Mike’s house in Madison, driving northwest in Wisconsin, heading toward a meeting and overnight with Abby Hartzell at Carleton College in Minnesota. It was a beautiful day, sunny and warm. The scenery was peaceful; open fields, farms, and wooded areas, so we got to talking. I mentioned to Peter that one of our reasons for the trip was that Trump took Wisconsin, to the surprise of Democrats nationwide, and that we wanted to figure out “why.” I asked Peter if he had reached any conclusions.

  

Peter:  

Dave, you’ll recall I wasn’t ready at that moment to say, instead I walked back to retrieve a coke from the refrigerator as you drove. But I’ve been thinking about it since. You know, Barack Obama took Wisconsin and so did Donald Trump. When it comes to appealing to voters they had a lot in common.

  

David:  You gotta be kidding.

Peter:  FIRST: They both sold the idea of CHANGE. Each of them wanted people to choose something different than what was happening already. They went about it differently, but the appeal to something that could represent a change for people unhappy with the status quo, is a strong appeal.

SECOND: They both were CHARISMATIC.  

David:  Really?

Peter:  Yes. Obama represented and campaigned for HOPE. Trump appealed to FEAR, but both of these emotions are gut level things. They are both feelings and not ideas. Both emotions can work up a crowd and it is easy to agree when you are in a group of several hundred all saying the same thing, or watching a group of several hundred on TV all saying the same thing. Crowds react to feelings and both of the candidates had the charisma to motivate crowds.

Probably the most important: THIRD: They both SHOWED UP.

In 2008, even though Wisconsin was considered to be “safe” for democrats and Obama ultimately won by 13.2%, Obama visited Wisconsin 7 times during the general election, on top of many more appearances during the primaries. (Wikipedia)  

 

In 2016 Trump had 5 rallies in Wisconsin during the general election, in addition to 10 during the primaries. Trump’s win in Wisconsin was considered to be a surprise by the pundits as he won by 1%. No poll ever showed Trump ahead and the average was that Clinton would win by 6.5%. (Various web sources)

 

Trump SAID that he cared about Wisconsinites and Showing Up made what he said more credible.

 

SO, David, how did Hillary compare on those three points: Change, Charisma, and showing up?

David:  

 

Well. Um. Not too well. Peter, you know that we talked with a lot of people who voted for Hillary and they still couldn’t stand Trump, but I guess I have to answer your question….. What were those again?

  

Peter:  Change, Charisma and Showing Up.  

David:  

 

Of course she didn’t represent Change. Obama did very well. Any claim she might make of Change-from-Obama would have been turning her back on not only her base, but the Hope that Obama represented. She was boxed in!

 

Remember, Peter, that Hillary was under constant attack since well before this campaign. She has long been defined by others as non-charismatic and her quote about “The Deplorables” was blasted over and over again. Add to that the fact that Wisconsin is a flyover state AND that Hillary was painted as the representative of “Inside the Beltway” and the “Coastal Elites.” So, I guess, she had a Charisma deficiency.

 

AND she never made a single campaign appearance in Wisconsin. While the intellectual choice was for Hillary, not showing up caused Wisconsinites to feel ignored so the enthusiasm for her couldn’t be built enough to win. In fact that was the thrust of several of the day-after headlines in the state. “Hillary ignores Wisconsin, Trump wins.”

[Is Listening the Answer?]

Peter:

 

So we’re in agreement? Great. We know why Trump won and Hillary lost Wisconsin.

 

I’m ready to move on from the ancient history of the 2016 election to a more timeless subject - Listening.

 

We set out on our listening tour with a hypothesis that by listening deeply and without a filter to others Americans outside of our bubble we’d benefit...and so might America. Remember, we did this because Arlie Hochschild suggested it at the end of her book, Strangers in their Own Land.

 

I’ve been thinking about the question: Is Listening The Answer? And concluded that the answer is “yes.”

David: (sarcastic?) Oh, this should be interesting…. Maybe you should start by defining what you mean by “listening”

Peter:

Okay: what is listening, and what is it not?

• Focused, preferably face-to-face
• Uninterrupted, one-on-one, two-on-two
• Open ended questions, not leading, for example the famous: “help me understand”
• Listening is not a debate
• Start and end strong - friendly,

(turn to David) You with me?

David: So far…

Peter:

For the listener, the act of listening is very rewarding in several ways:

• To sympathize/empathize -- humanize...spiritual practice...connection
• Better understand how people develop views and beliefs -- realize that beliefs are a mosaic
• Understanding the anatomy of someone’s beliefs and opinions helps us better counter them, creatively address them, possibly find some middle ground.
• Reflect, consider our own beliefs

Each of these four things happened to me through our interviews. But probably the most powerful effect of our listening was the building of trust between our interviewees and us. I’m reminded of the the term coined by Steven Covey: “Change happens at the speed of trust.”

 

In my opinion Covey really had a lot of things right in his work on listening (remember: two ears, one mouth?) and this quote says so much about the need to slow down and consciously build trust as a prerequisite to any effort to effect change -- in others or oneself.

  

David:

That’s interesting, Peter. I’ve also been thinking about this question: Is listening the answer? And I’ve concluded the answer is “NO.”

One way listening is false

• The speaker feels good, heard, thinks the listener “get’s it.”
• The listener has maybe derived the benefits you list out, Peter, but if it is not a conversation, it is going nowhere. In our case the speakers never listened back. I don’t think they grew one iota.
• Furthermore, by repeating their story and enumerating their beliefs if anything they hardened, not loosened.

No one we spoke to asked questions about us. No one asked our opinions. No one even asked about our family, etc. If anything we were treated like reporters -- treated nicely, with respect, with friendship… but as transactional reporters

Peter: Fair enough, Dave.  

• Can we agree, however, that nothing will get better for anyone, the listener or the speaker without starting with some careful listening?
• But you are right, one-way listening is just the beginning. And to get to two way listening is a bigger project -- for people of polar opinion it probably requires a third party facilitator or agreed process.
• Nonetheless, careful listening -- especially to each others humanizing, personal stories -- is arguably the only way to build trust and understanding...not necessarily agreement...but connection.
• Then the real work can begin. You were the one who quoted George Mitchell during his Ireland peace talks saying:

“We just kept talking and eventually trust broke out.”

One of the results of our Listening Tour work is we’ve come across a “listening cottage industry” which includes a number of projects and initiatives which I’d say fall into two rough categories: Listening projects and Bridging Projects.

Listening Projects:

Locally: Mark Zuckerberg, Sophia Pink at Stanford, Pop the Bubble Tour (Kern Beare), Joe Simitian, Vicki Veenker, Jen Myhre

Nationally: Huffington Post, Walking to Listen (Andrew Forsthoefel), Living Room Conversations

Bridging Work:

These efforts bring together opposing viewpoints to work to find common ground. They use a very deliberate, structured dialog to try to tackle intractable, often political issues:
 
Convergence, health care, economic mobility, education, are just three...the process can take years to arrive at outcomes, but the results are powerful when two opposing groups stand together to endorse the end result.
 
Libby and Len Traubman’s local Jewish-Palestinian Dialog work has been going on locally and globally for years.
 
[Will it get any better, soon?]

 

David:

 

So, Peter, let’s shift to today. Over a year into Trump’s presidency, decades into the steady sorting of America and acrimony on Capitol Hill…

How is all of that working out for you? I mean, have we hit bottom? Is this as bad as it gets?

 

 

Peter: Regrettably, No. And I’ll tell you why

The trends that have led us to this point in history are complex and layered on top of each other. Let me list four of them:

 

1. The “Sorting of America” phenomenon. This has been well documented in a bunch of books and articles: Coming Apart, Charles Murray’s work, Our Kids, Robert Putnam, a book by Bill Bishop called The Big Sort, American Nations by Colin Woodard. Over the past couple of generations Americans have become more and more likely to spend most of their lives isolated in their tribe:

• Where we live, school, work: Coast/Center, Urban/Rural,
• Media...where we get information
• Wealth disparity - a phenomenon well documented in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century

2. The technology disruption is a second factor which is up ending how we communicate, get our news, feel entitled and victimized...all at lightning speed. News media has been decimated economically and in response has become narrow and shallow. Facebook “news” is susceptible to manipulation. All our web information is personalized -- which allows it to play on our fears and insecurities and misguided hopes and wishes. All of this is before the advance of Artificial Intelligence which will continue to up end work and education.

 

Globalization The flow of people across borders caused by religious, political, economic, climate stresses -- and the aggravating stresses on the countries/ communities where they land.

Racism is still endemic and has a huge impact on our society.

These four factors have led to stresses on our American political systems

1. Gerrymandering (self selected as well as manipulated)...rewarding strict party-line voting
2. Ease of avoiding people with different opinions and beliefs...as citizens AND our elected politicians...not reward for listening and reaching sensible compromise
3. Leveraged by media, propaganda, 24 hour news cycle
4. Not to mention...Wealth in politics

One take away: the problem does not begin in Washington, it begins deeper in our society.

 

And the bad news: None of this is going away anytime soon.

[Is there reason to hope?]

David:
Wow, that is depressing. I see things a little differently. There is clearly lots of reason to hope that things will, or are already...getting better.

• American Spirit: We are an optimistic people. Every fiber of our national heritage tells us that we can and will make things better. We CAN take care of each other. We CAN fix things that are wrong. This optimism in itself solves nothing, but it CAN open the door.
• We have common experiences; both positive and negative. Because we have experiences in common we can seek and build upon common ground. We found lots of common ground in Wisconsin.
• A great leader can bring us together, at least more together than we are now. I think of Pope Francis in this way. A great leader can say what needs to be said, and be heard.
• We can respond to common threats together. Like it or not, Climate Change is an existential threat to the survival of humans on the Earth. If we can direct our efforts toward working together to survive we can temporarily put aside petty differences.
• When governments fail others step in, even giant corporations can act for the survival of those consumers upon whom they depend for their own success. Right now Unilever, not a corporation I would have chosen for any citizenship award, is demanding that Facebook, Google and others clean up their news feeds under threat of withdrawing advertising. While if the people through government had taken the lead it would be better, this may help.

[Prescription - Call to Action]

 

Peter:
Dave, it’s show time. When we signed up for this talk we promised Liz we’d have some answers. For a year now we’ve been striving to derive some answers from our Listening Tour Project. I’m afraid the time has come to put it on the line.

David:
Okay, I’ve been waiting to hear what you have to say.

Peter:

Well, I’ll start by saying that I agree with your list of reasons for hope. The other reason I see for hope are the people around us in this room tonight, those in our church community, on the Peninsula, our kids and someday their kids. But this is not a time for passivity, for hand wringing. We have to see this as a time for activism. 

 

(Looks at David) So let’s lay out our three-point prescription to the people sharing our bubble with us.

  

David:  
Point 1: Mindset adjustment: Push the mute button, turn down the volume on Trump and the antics of DC.

• Fear/ hysteria are a tool of manipulation, don’t be manipulated
• Trust in the institutions of our democracy -- be critical but …
• Believe in the reasonableness, common ground of our fellow Americans...we’ve met a bunch of them in Wisconsin

 NO solution ever came out of fear.

 

Peter:  

Point 2: Gain the power of understanding This is the work (we see now) of our Listening Tour Project. Actively reach out to better understand other points of view

• Be curious… ask open ended questions. Ask questions of yourself.
• Travel in the US -- deeply. Each trip must include deep listening of locals who think/ believe differently. This will bring empathy and better understanding.
• Refrain from blame. Articulate - state back to them what you have heard. Ask follow-up questions.
• Seek out new/ varied sources of news and information:
• >>allsides.com
• >>Other considered news sources
• Push back on your tribe when they overreach

Point 3: Describe a more perfect union.

Get out your pen, quill or laptop and write it down. Remember when we wrote letters? Well in those days we were forced to clearly articulate to another our point of view, our sentiment, our ambition. Here is your chance -- but now for our United States.

 

Read what you’ve written with the eyes of someone who sees things differently from you...and will have reasonable rebuttals or skepticism coming from their experience and beliefs.

 

Consider this assignment part of your patriotic duty as an American: Barack Obama asked us from the bridge at Selma, “What greater form of patriotism is there than the belief that America is not yet finished?” Well here is your chance to write out the next chapter.

 

Here is your specific prompt:

What (specifically) is your prescription for a more perfect Union?

Consider our collective challenges -

• our expectation of fairness of opportunity,
• the power of the free markets, enterprise, innovation and technology,
• the nature of humans to protect their tribe,
• the corrosive impact of fear,
• the power of religious beliefs and
• science’s rapid unpacking of what were once mysteries

Consider NOT was sorts and divides us but our substantial shared history, aspirations, values, ethics and pride.

On our Listening Tour, Dave and I spoke with a couple, Jeff and Jeannie who, when we presented them with our question: “What is the path forward?” reflected and answered, “We Americans need a new narrative that resonates and leads us positively forward.” Jeannie is an actor and reflected on the power of theater or movies or books or visual art. This is your chance to articulate that narrative.

 

As you write, remember the aspiration of the inspiring words in the Preamble to our Constitution….

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

 

....do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Let’s all use these three assignments:

• Mindset adjustment
• Gain the Power of Understanding
• Write down your new narrative for a more perfect union

 and get back to the work of making our better world, come true.

David: There you have it.  We’ve left plenty of time for rebuttals, reflections, questions?

Listening Tour in Conversation: Slide Presentation

These are the slides that "looped" as people came in at the start of the Conversation on December 10, 2017 at the UU Fellowship of Redwood City.

-- Peter

What did we learn?...December 10th Conversation (partial) recording...We're eager for feedback

"What did you learn?"
"What are your conclusions?"
"How are you different because of this experience?"

Dave and I have been hearing variations on these questions a lot in the weeks we have been back home in the San Francisco Bay Area.  We've found that we don't have a pat, sound-bite answer.

That said, we ruminated and shared our reflections in conversation with the experienced interviewer, and moderator, John Anning.  The event was:

Sunday, December 10th from 7-9 

UUFRC (Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Redwood City)

2124 Lowell Street, Redwood City

Here is a recording of the last 40 minutes of the conversation (sorry, the first portion was not recorded).

Dave and Peter in Conversation: Dec 10, 2017 UUFRC

Finally, we are asking for feedback.  We are going out to two groups:

1. Each of the people we interviewed to learn how it felt to be part of this project.
2. Readers of the blog to learn how it felt to participate at readers.

If you'd like to share your questions, feedback and suggestions, please do.

Peter and Dave

pdhartzell@gmail.com
vallerga@usa.net

Racine Hispanic Family Perspective

Peter and I met Luis and Alma and their youngest son in Pastor Jerry’s home on Tuesday morning, October 17, 2017.  This was the first conversation of our last day in Racine.  Pastor Jerry and Jane facilitated graciously and even hosted several of our meetings, for we had asked Pastor Jerry for assistance in setting up interviews with a wide variety of people.  We were particularly interested in meeting Hispanics because we come from a part of the US with a large Hispanic population. We were grateful to meet Luis and Alma, hear their stories and understand their outlooks.

Luis’ Early Life

Zacatecas, north of Mexico City

Luis was born in the State of Zacatecas, Mexico, which is in Central Mexico just north of Mexico City.  His father worked in Texas and other border states and eventually came to Wisconsin as an agricultural worker.  Luis was born in 1972 and in 1978 Luis’ father decided to bring his wife and Luis to Racine.  Luis has 4 sisters and a brother; he is the oldest.  When they came to the U.S. only Luis and 2 sisters came.  He arrived in Racine when he was 6 years old.  He considers himself  “a local” because it is the only life he knows, although he has been back to Mexico several times, and knows family members there.  Luis has many relatives in Wisconsin: aunts, uncles, cousins and such. He repeats, “this is my home.”

Luis and Alma are from the same town in Mexico and he met her at a wedding on a trip back to Mexico.  Their fathers knew each other in Wisconsin as well.   

Luis went to work directly after high school.  “Being the oldest in a Mexican family, you have to start working to support your younger siblings.”  When he was around 14 years old, he started working in the fields during the summer, “working 12, 13, 14 hours per day.”  His income went to the family to support them.   Luis has taken some technical and college courses and even went to seminary for a while. Luis does not have a college degree. One of his sisters is a teacher and one has a Master’s in Business; both were able to go to college full time “on the backs of the older [siblings].”  His family preserved their ability to speak Spanish by not allowing English to be spoken in the home.  

Luis and Alma’s children are not as good at speaking Spanish because they jump back and forth between languages when they speak.  They  have four children, the oldest will be 15 next month, and the youngest, who joined them for our conversation, is 3.

Alma’s Early Life

Cathedral in central Zacatecas City

Alma moved to the US  in 2001 when she married Luis and came up to Racine.  Her father spent most of his time in Racine.  Her father was a farmer and a musician.  Now he lives back in Mexico.  Crops from the family farm in Mexico were affected by NAFTA, so when the price for corn was too low ,they kept it rather than sold it; she remembers “rooms full of mice,” referring to storage rooms of corn couldn’t be sold.  Alma has no relatives that live in Racine; just her “family in Christ” who are better than her blood family.  She does have a brother who lives in Oklahoma, but the rest live in Mexico.

Racine’s Hispanic Community and Racism

Peter asked about the “Hispanic community” in Racine.  Luis said that there are a lot of Hispanics in the area.  He remembers growing up in the ‘80s.  There was one “Mexican store” then and anyone who needed Mexican groceries or ingredients went there.  Now there are four or five, scattered around the city.  While there are more Hispanics toward the South side of Racine and fewer in the North, there is not much segregation.  Luis says, "growing up Mexican here I have never experienced a sense of separation.  Other, newer immigrants say that they do, but I’ve never experienced it myself.  I’ve experienced racism but I don’t feel afraid in any part of town and I feel welcome.  Others do feel oppressed.  We live on the North side, near Caledonia, and when people (other Mexicans) find out they say, ‘you don’t belong there, you belong further down South.’ Our neighborhood is modest, like this, (referring to Pastor Jerry’s neighborhood) and it is mixed, middle class."

Luis reflects that he “doesn’t understand why people put themselves into certain neighborhoods and therefore a disadvantage.”

I asked about the racism that Luis said he experienced: “How did that happen?”

Luis recounts that he was in Seminary in Waukegan, Illinois, and was driving back home to Racine.  He was going north on Sheridan Road, right after he crossed the line from Illinois, and an undercover cop pulled him over.  It was the middle of winter and it was freezing outside.

"I pulled over and as soon as he sees me he is very aggressive. ‘What are you doing here?  Why are you out this late?’ He was asking all of the dumb questions.  I said, ‘I’m coming from Bible school.’ He said, ‘Sure you are.’ I tried to show him my books, my bag and such.  But all of a sudden another car pulls up and blocks me from the front.  I thought to myself, ‘That’s not good because he has already asked for backup.”

Luis continued, "So I’m trying to figure out what’s going on when he ordered me, ‘get out of the car.’ I responded by asking, ‘Number one, why did you stop me?  What sort of traffic violation?’ He said, ‘that doesn’t matter, get out of the car.’ I said, ‘Yes it does matter.  If I haven’t done anything wrong, there was no reason to stop me and I don’t have to get out of the car.’ That made him angry.  He said ‘Who do you think you are? Are you a lawyer?’  I said, “I’m not a lawyer, but I know the law.  If there is nothing that I did wrong there is no reason for me to get out.” He said, ‘That is not here or there’ and he grabbed me, pulled me out of my car and threw me on the hood."

It gets worse:  "He said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘You have my I.D.’  He said, ‘What’s your real name?’ 

I said, ‘You have all the information in your hands.  That’s all the information that you are going to get.’  
He said, ‘Take off your jacket.’ At that point I was very upset, but I took off my jacket.  
He said ‘Take off your shirt.’  I took off my shirt, but it was really cold; in the middle of winter.  He asked, ‘What kind of tattoos do you have?’ I don’t have any tattoos and I said so.  He said ‘OK, fine.’ And the other guy came back and said, ‘He’s fine, he’s clean, and he doesn’t even have a parking ticket.’” Luis concludes, “And the biggest double whammy was that [the officer’s] last name was Rodriguez.”

Peter verified that this happened in Wisconsin.  Luis said that Rodriguez was a Kenosha County deputy sheriff.  Luis also said that is the only time he has had this kind of experience.  He continued:  “When I walk into a room, some people might look at me funny, but once I start talking people can see who I am.”  He continues, “You have to let people know who you are!  Yes, I am Hispanic, but I am also a law abiding citizen who happens to be from Mexico.”

DACA and Undocumented Immigration

Peter asked about DACA and the Dreamers.  Luis said that there are undocumented people: “everybody who is Hispanic knows somebody who is undocumented, most have family members who are not documented.”  Peter asked about Luis; was he ever undocumented?  Luis said “no, at least not to my knowledge.”  His father was undocumented and acquired permanent residency with the Reagan amnesty program in 1986 and then worked to become citizens.  But when he was a kid he did not know about documented and undocumented.  He was just a kid!  He has seen this happen to a lot of kids; they learn when they try to get a job, get a driver’s license or apply to college.

Luis continues about DACA.  He is not into protests because he thinks they accomplish nothing.  Luis has a problem in that DACA was never a law; as an executive order it started and had to finish.  Now Congress can fix it or not.  He continues by explaining that DACA has impacted a lot of kids; they have very close friends who have DACA who are now scared. Luis asks rhetorically, “What is going to happen?  Before DACA you were undocumented, you went to school, you worked.  After DACA the same thing will happen.  Nothing changed.  You won’t have anything less than you had before DACA.”  

Peter asks where Luis stands on immigration in general.  Luis agrees that it is a very difficult issue.  He shares, “There are ways to come to the country legally.  The process is just too long.  The problem is the wait time.  Fifteen or Twenty years for Mexico.  The wait time encourages people to come illegally.”  

Peter asks if Luis would increase the number of admissions being offered.  Alma interjects that the wrong people want to come from Mexico.  Drug dealers take over. The wrong people can get in because they pay bribes.  When we ask, however, Alma does not know anyone who bribed to “get to the front of the line,” but as a Latina, she “hears stories.”

Pastor Jerry asked if people just come here to get welfare benefits.  Initially Alma hesitates but then agrees with Pastor Jerry.

Luis’ Immigration Recommendation

Luis offers a fix.  He wouldn’t increase the number of people admitted as immigrants. Most just want to work and return to Mexico.  He recalls  the Bracero program, and offers, “That was a good way to achieve the desire of people to work and return to Mexico.  That should be revived.  At the end of the season they can return to home.”  

Dependence on Government Hand Outs

Peter asks for a comparison between the welfare system in Mexico with the one in the U.S.  Alma says that in the U.S. there are more opportunities to feed your kids.  Peter asks “what’s the right level for the safety net?”  Luis offers, “Benefits should be temporary.  We all go through tough times.  When you need the extra help that’s when the State might come in and help with, for example, food stamps.  But it should be temporary.  People should not get too comfortable with benefits.”  Luis says that he has confronted some of his family members who take benefits that he, Luis, has to pay for.  “Why are you taking my tax money?  Why are you stealing from me?” he asks them.

Alma offers:  “In America they make people morally irresponsible.  I am very against school lunches.  This is the responsibility of the parents, not the school.  This makes more irresponsibility.  If we are in a tough situation we can go to our church and our brothers and sisters will help us.  It makes people greedy to get it from the government.  We are responsible for our kids.  We should walk in our faith.  Don’t depend on the system, we have to work for what we get.”

Celeb’s Story

Alma begins to share about their son Caleb who people thought was deaf:  “They offered us $1800 per month in support for a disabled child.  We refused it.”

Luis picked up the story:  "When Caleb was born he had a very bad ear infection.  For the first two years of his life he suffered from ear infections.  We went to special doctors and hearing doctors who thought he couldn’t hear.  There was one test they wanted to give him and if he didn’t pass they said he would be deaf for the rest of his life.  Instead, I took him to the Elders of our church.  

Pastor Jerry interjected, “this is our teaching.”  

Luis continued, “In my faith I took him to the Elders.  He was two years old.  Chuck, one of the elders said, ‘You have faith and we will pray for the health of your child.’  They took oil, they applied it to his ears and they prayed.  The next day they took him for the test and the doctors said, ‘There is nothing wrong here.  Why did you bring him?  He is perfectly normal.’ Our faith healed him.”  

Alma jokingly interjects, “There goes the $1800 per month.”

Alma went on to say that Caleb was slow to speak and the school wanted to put him in a disabled class.  She wouldn’t let them.  She said, ”The Lord is my provider and he gave me the right child.”  There were problems with Caleb staring at his teacher which made her uncomfortable.  But at the end of the second grade Caleb was at the top of the class in reading and math.  There was nothing disabled about him.  Alma gives credit to the Lord.

Alma says that she lives the way the Lord tells her.   Political things do not matter.  She “doesn’t have to follow Trump, she doesn’t have to follow Obama; they are just people put there by the God to run the country.  What matters is living in the way of the Lord.” She explains that in Mexican politics people go with the candidate who promises the most.  She adds, “Right and wrong do not matter.  What matters is who gives you the most.”

Luis and Alma’s Faith Journeys

Peter asks about Luis and Alma’s faith journey.  Luis grew up in a Christian home.  The stereotype of Mexicans is that they are Catholic.  Luis was never a Catholic; he grew up in a Baptist church in Racine.  His mother taught them to be Christian.  On Sunday the one thing they did was go to Church.  After church they had Church’s fried chicken!

Peter asked Luis to go back a generation, to Mexico.  He tells us that his mother grew up in a Protestant church.  Luis’ grandfather was a businessman, and was well off in Mexico.  When the missionaries came, the only person who could provide for them was his grandfather, who hosted the missionaries in his home.

Alma was born a Catholic, in a Catholic home, was baptized, and had First Communion, “everything you could think of.”  She left her parents when she was 13 years old.  Her adolescent life “did not include the Catholic Church.”  She explains that she lived a wild life.  She left home because there was too much pressure; her mom and dad were each “always working.”  “It was a big mess.”  She tells us matter of factly that she, “Worked for agencies,” “Her body was for hire.”  But she made it through and gave herself to the Lord when she was in her 20’s.  She never went back to her home until the day before she married Luis.  She knew that her parents would be upset, but her pastor said that Luis and she should pray on it and go to see her parents.  During the visit Alma’s parents said, “Thank you for letting us know.”  Alma emphasises that “[she] lives by Faith. [She] does not need anything in her hands, [she] needs Faith.”  She continues, “You can have all the money in the world, but if you don’t have God in your heart you have nothing.”  Luis is far from the perfect husband,” said Alma says with a sideways glance, “but the grace of God keeps us together.”

Guns, 2nd Amendment and Mexico

Peter inquired about guns and the Second Amendment, including how it affects Mexico.  
Alma responded first with:  “I don’t like guns.”  

Luis, who was in the process of describing himself to us as a “Constitutionalist” followed with:  “Gun ownership is a right according the Second Amendment just as the First, Third, Fourth and all of the other Amendments give us rights, so how can you tell somebody that ‘yes you have the right to free speech, but yet you shouldn’t own a gun’ when they have the same value when you look at the Constitution.  For me it is not a complicated issue.  Either you can or you can’t.  If you want to talk about gun violence that is a different thing.”

Peter said, “So let’s talk about gun violence.”  

Luis continued: “The right to own guns is one thing, gun violence is another.  When people get confused is when they mix the two together.  Violence is in the heart of a man. Violence is inside a man.  It is not an external thing.  A man doesn’t need a gun to be violent.  A bare hand is a weapon.  Speaking is a weapon, it can tear down nations. So gun violence, I think, you would have to put in the category as any other violence.  If you drive drunk and kill somebody that car is a weapon.  I know that right now [referring to the Las Vegas shootings that happened not long before our interview] and every time since Columbine, we started combining gun ownership with gun violence.”

Peter asked if Luis is a hunter.  Luis said that he is.  Peter asked what he likes to hunt and Luis responded, “Anything that moves!”  He then reviewed what game he hunts and whether he uses a rifle or shotgun for each.

Luis stated that the problem is that we mix the “ownership” question with violence and we shouldn’t mix the two.  

Peter asked about violence, “What path do you see forward on the violence?”  
Luis answers,  “The only cure for violence is Jesus Christ, because if you want to cure that no social program or law will cure that.  You can pass all the laws against anything, not just guns, but that doesn’t solve the problems.”

Peter asks if Luis is a member of the NRA. Luis says, “Yes I am.”  Then he goes on to say, “The NRA is just a club.  They defend the Second Amendment.”  He does not agree with the NRA completely, but when ‘they’ attack the Second Amendment, the NRA defends it.” 

 

Alma says this is something that she and Luis disagree on.  She is completely against guns.  She says that violence, for example in Mexico, is an example of the depravity people have in their hearts.  “We need the Lord.  They, the NRA, say that we need guns and violence.”  Luis says that people die of violence with road rage every day.  The kitchen is dangerous: “you could stick your hand in the garbage disposal and bleed out.”

Mental Illness vs. Parenting

Peter asks what Luis’ take is on mental illness that leads to violence.  Luis responds,
There’s mental illness where you can’t function in society, and there is mental illness where you have anger problems.  There are certain levels of mental illness.  It’s not simple.

Alma offers an opinion.  “Now everything that goes wrong is blamed on mental illness. Now in Wisconsin you can see that kids do not have a good foundation in the home.” Now [with her daughter, Olivia,] her friends do not have a solid foundation.  Olivia sees only a few friends with married parents.”  But these friends do not blame this on a problem in their families, they blame mental illness.”

Pastor Jerry interjects that Alma is a very unusual woman, to have come through all the trauma that she has seen and to become a good and stable parent.  He also says that Luis and Alma are raising a teenage daughter, Olivia who is an “odd duck.”  He does not define the term, but he says that he is praying for Olivia, because Jane (Jerry’s wife) has asked him to pray.  Alma and Jane are very close “and talk,” so Jerry knows something about  Olivia.  Then Jerry says that “[Olivia] is struggling with her identity.”  

Peter asks if she is struggling because she comes from an intact family.  Alma offers that most of Olivia’s friends at her Catholic high school don’t know if they are a girl or boy.  She recalls what she hears from Olivia’s peers, “My mom has a girlfriend.  My dad has a boyfriend.  Which one is my dad?”  Alma tells us “they called Olivia homophobic because she comes from a home with a mother and a father.  That’s how the devil works.”

Magic Wand Question and a Blessing

We have to wrap up our conversation because we are running out of time.  Peter first thanks Luis and Alma for a rich and interesting conversation and then asks our “magic wand” question:  “If you had one wish….”  

Luis responded first.  ”It would be to give more courage to the church around the world, the courage to express their faith.  The reason we are having problems globally and nationally is because Christians are being shut down.  Everybody talks about acceptance and equality; everybody talks about co-existing together and all of this and the only group that is not being invited to the party are Evangelical Christians.  If you say that you are a Christian, right off the bat you must be homophobic, you must be anti-this or that.  Everybody else can be accepted except Christians.  If we had this conversation and my faith had not come up would you have guessed that I was a Christian?  Probably not.”

Alma then responded: “When I received the Lord, I was afraid.  I’m not afraid anymore.  I would like to see more of us out there working for the Lord, not just in church.  I don’t care who you are, I care what I have to tell you.  I am a servant of God to change who I am now.  I want to make changes in Racine so that they can receive the Lord now.

Pastor Jerry offered a brief prayer and blessing and we prepared to leave.

Final word, on Trump

As we stood up, and just before the recorder was turned off, Luis mentioned that he often disagrees with Trump, but that the bible teaches him that he has to respect the office and as a result he has to respect Trump’s presidency.  I asked if, because it was the office, he had an equal respect for Obama.  He said that he does.  Luis repeated that he is a “Constitutionalist” and that is the most important thing for him.

--David