Dave and I arrive at the Anchor Inn, a spacious sports bar on the Rock River. We find Robert sitting at a bar table in the far corner with a Buckhorn Supper Club hat on his head, and a big smile on his face. He is one of the featured individuals in the book Janesville. His determination to find jobs for the displaced GM workers and his hard work in the face of the challenges of the 2008 recession made an impression on us. When I tracked him down via Facebook, he was gracious and made time to meet with us at this bar near his home.
The Early Days
Robert was born in Milwaukee to a German immigrant mother and father who grew up near Green Bay, with ancestors from Belgium. He remembers going to the 6:00 AM Catholic Mass near his grandparents’ home in Green Bay and meeting Vince Lombardi, the Packers larger-than-life coach who sat in the front pew.
Robert went to parochial school and was “pushed” to go to a 4 year college. This was not his preference, he wanted to learn a trade and get to work. But a teacher at the trade school encouraged him to get his teaching degree, and come back and replace him, when he retired in a few years. Robert ended up in U of W, Stout, in Menomonie, WI and completed a degree in Industrial Education.
Robert went to parochial school and was “pushed” to go to a 4 year college. This was not his preference, he wanted to learn a trade and get to work. But a teacher at the trade school encouraged him to get his teaching degree, and come back and replace him, when he retired in a few years. Robert ended up in U of W, Stout, in Menomonie, WI and completed a degree in Industrial Education.
007 goes to Vietnam
In 1971 Robert received his draft number: “007.” Knowing he was “going to go” he joined the Navy after a deferment to complete his degree. By then he was married and had a daughter. He shipped out of San Diego. He ended up serving for six years -- two in the pacific, two on Treasure Island in the SF Bay, and two on a base north of Chicago. Reflecting back on the importance of National Service -- something Robert thinks would be very good for all young Americans to help them form shared ‘American Values’ -- he reflects, “I’d never do the military again, but I benefited.” His memory of Treasure Island is the great view of the SF skyline and the frequent filming of “The Streets Of San Francisco” and “Moving On” on the “streets of Treasure Island to provide the backdrop view of the city. That and the $.90 Pabst Blue Ribbon beer -- Robert’s home brew “as they were still brewing it in Milwaukee at the time.” |
| View of SF from Treasure Island |
Robert earned his MA in Education Administration while in the Navy. He then began a 40 year career working in administration in the Technical Colleges of Southern Wisconsin rising to be VP of Administrative and Student Services at Blackhawk Technical College in Janesville. Along the way, he earned a EdD (doctorate in education) from NOVA, an off campus program that he explains was a precursor to University of Phoenix. He would meet with his advisor, attend extended class sessions in Arizona, and received credit for work experience. His educational experiences shape his view on the importance of many, flexible, rigorous ways to educate people throughout their careers -- as they are ready.
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| Blackhawk's Beloit Campus |
In 2003 Robert was hired at Executive Director for the Southwest Wisconsin Workforce Development Board. There are 11 such Boards across Wisconsin. Southwest included six counties including Rock County -- home of Janesville and Beloit. Robert reported to a Board of 36 business and community members and interfaced with the State Workforce Development Office. Most of Southwest Wisconsin is rural -- farming and small towns. Janesville and Beloit were the two industrial centers. Robert ran two “Job Centers” and an online resource system designed to help three populations: 1. Dislocated workers, 2. Adults in poverty, and 3. Youth.GM Closes, permanently
In 2008, five years into his job, Robert is out of town in northern Wisconsin when word reaches him that the GM Janesville Plant, which was the first GM plant, and has been operating since the 1920’s, has been closed. He rushes back to “be on the scene.” Closing the plant “had been rumored so often...I’d been living here since 1980...no one is believing it,” Robert recalls. He recounts that leading up to the announcement “everybody thought it was a ploy to get the State to kick in some additional funding” to help modernize the 1920’s era plant with all of its inefficiencies. But we were wrong.”
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| Janesville GM Plant Today...soon to be torn down |
On that day, 4500 employees at GM Robert’s Workforce Region were laid off: “We went from being the Workforce Region with the lowest unemployment to the highest in one fell swoop.” And things grew much worse. “At one point in 2009 we had 24% of the unemployment of the State of Wisconsin in our Workforce Region -- we were over 12,000 unemployed.” The GM plant had 4500, but there was impact across all of Rock County and beyond with suppliers and then, “Oh wait, the recession hit.” Restaurants and retail were also hit. There was a “multiplier” impact. Furthermore, the GM jobs were paying $75-80,000 per year, and with overtime there were a lot of employees making over $100,000 per year.”
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| In 2008 home to 4500 workers making $75 to 100+K/yr |
How to Respond? - The Rock County Approach
At several points in our conversation, Robert loops back to the response to the unemployment challenges in Rock County. Here are four of the highlights:
- Use good tools to assess a person’s aptitude and interests to increase the chances that the re-training they get, the job they take is a good fit. He rattles off his favorite tools which he believes are effective -- and Ann confirmed that they are still being used by her students at the Janesville High School.
- It is essential (for such community challenges...and more generally for effective government (more on this later)) for the various players to come together, let their guards down, focus on the issues, put the resources where they will be most effective and get the work done. Robert was part of a county-wide group including business leaders, union representatives, social services organizations, schools, government agencies who would meet regularly to plan the right action steps.
Robert: I think that is what we did here in Rock County. We pulled together a group of all these community groups and said what are the problems we need to address, who has the resources to address them, who has that issue and lets send you the resources to help address the other needs that the community has. I believe that is something that we did right when we were addressing what is going on here. That split that had existed between Janesville and Beloit for years, this group included both. We listened to the Union people and the business community: the employers and the employees.
That’s one of the issues I have with the Book and the Movie. They say ‘Janesville.’ It was really Rock County. There wasn’t finger pointing that this is all because of you (you know that WAS the prevailing attitude) that you the GM worker were expecting way too much wages, that it had gotten out of hand and was unreasonable. There was a lot of finger pointing in that regard. But we worked through that. You know; it wasn’t their fault.
That’s one of the issues I have with the Book and the Movie. They say ‘Janesville.’ It was really Rock County. There wasn’t finger pointing that this is all because of you (you know that WAS the prevailing attitude) that you the GM worker were expecting way too much wages, that it had gotten out of hand and was unreasonable. There was a lot of finger pointing in that regard. But we worked through that. You know; it wasn’t their fault.
- Acknowledge that it will take time to retrain people and get them back into solid jobs. And the reality is, the jobs won’t pay as well as the lost GM jobs. Robert’s dissertation was on: “what happens to a graduate of a Tech School versus someone who drops out.” Such drop outs are called: “job out” -- they leave school for a job and it may not be related to their area of instruction. “Only about ⅓ of students who enroll in tech colleges graduate.” Robert’s research over 3 - 5 years… [showed] “a graduate ends up with more promotions, higher wages, greater job stability than the Job Out. Even though after the first year or so the Job Out is making more money.” Furthermore, Robert remembers that in 2009-10 there WERE no jobs. “You weren’t going to get retrained and suddenly find a job in the bottom of a recession. It’s going to take the economy some time to roll those jobs back.
- Working class people are less likely to move for a job than professionals. Robert explained, “The other thing we found out is that unlike the four year college graduate, the tech college graduate wants to stay in the area.” “The goal of the tech college is to train the skilled worker for the area that they serve.” This is good for the community -- locally educated and locally employed.
With some pride, Robert concludes, “If you look now, Rock County is among the lowest unemployment in the State of Wisconsin. And I’d like to think that that is 3-5 years out -- consistent with my research. I’d like to think we did the right kind of things.”
A Media Star
Dave and I noticed that Robert was very comfortable speaking with us, didn’t mind the recording device and noted that he had 10 more hours of things to cover with us as we were departing after our conversation. But being at the vortex of an economic meltdown brought Rock County and Robert a lot of attention.
Robert: [Amy Goldstein (author of Janesville) and I] talked 120 - 150 hours. We got to be good friends. “As Goes Janesville” a PBS feature by Brad Lichtenstein feature on this period attracted lots of foreign interest. They were curious about small town effect by disappearance of long term corporate involvement. I was featured in Janesville news over 140 times. So when Amy showed up, no big deal. She didn’t come to do a book. Material just kept growing and growing and growing. Until finally she decided to make it into a book.
Role of Government
Peter: What is the role of Government?
Robert: “You are going to solve that?!”
But after his initial incredulity, Robert dug in and provided some very thoughtful reflections. He reminded us he had spent ALL of his career working in the public sector. At several points Robert referred to his mentor, Jim Catania, President of Blackhawk Technical College. Jim had suffered from Polio, so he was disabled, he was from Milwaukee and according to Robert, had a very strong value system. Robert recalled a moment in his career with Jim: “I tried to buy a truck in Illinois one time. And Jim said, ‘cancel that order.’ ‘We are going to buy in Rock County and support the people who pay your salary.’”
What are our shared values?
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| Mentor in Good Government - Jim Catania |
Robert: I don’t know what our values are anymore. I don’t know what the role of Government is because I don’t know what our values are anymore. I think the role of government is to go back and identify what our priorities are and create values. And I don’t know if we can do that anymore. When it comes to applying values; you address the needs of the community while minimizing any malpractice in the use of those funds. That was Jim Catania’s philosophy. You don’t tax for the sake of taxing. But you tax because you need those resources in order to provide a service. And that service must be needed and not available in any other way.”
Robert: Now that doesn’t start to answer the question of how can we start a debate about what are our values. And we can't let it get personal. I don’t know how you have a legitimate conversation about gun control, because everyone jumps to their personal views, and they tend to be pretty extreme. We’ve got to figure out how to talk to one another.
“I go back to Jim Catania," Robert reflects. He shares examples of other times in his career where people had a personal agenda, which was not based on the value of serving the people. Upon his retirement, Robert is proud to tell us of the tribute paid him by the Board President, a business owner. "He said, 'You never acted like a bureaucrat. You worked like a business person.'"
Robert: Now that doesn’t start to answer the question of how can we start a debate about what are our values. And we can't let it get personal. I don’t know how you have a legitimate conversation about gun control, because everyone jumps to their personal views, and they tend to be pretty extreme. We’ve got to figure out how to talk to one another.
“I go back to Jim Catania," Robert reflects. He shares examples of other times in his career where people had a personal agenda, which was not based on the value of serving the people. Upon his retirement, Robert is proud to tell us of the tribute paid him by the Board President, a business owner. "He said, 'You never acted like a bureaucrat. You worked like a business person.'"
What are the “right” services?
Robert: Making sure people don’t fall through the cracks. Take Puerto Rico. I don’t see why we aren’t in there helping. I mean 60% of people still don’t have power. How can you allow people to suffer that way? Should we be fighting forest fires? Yeah, I think we should. Should we be re-building infrastructure? Yeah, I think we should. You’ve got to prioritize. Like in business. The difference is in government you can’t say 'it’s not in my mission.' You’ve got a broader mission. You can’t let essential services fall through the cracks.
Politics in Wisconsin, then and now
We ask Robert to explain how Wisconsin went from blue to red.
Dissatisfied with the Status Quo
In 2010 when Walker was elected, the citizens were dissatisfied with the status quo. Unemployment was high, wages were falling, promises by the democratic Governor and candidate, Barack Obama had not come true yet. They were ready for a change.
“People in this part of the State, and I think across the State were feeling like they weren’t being listened to. Disenfranchised. Felt left behind and isolated.” “You had Obama and others coming here and promising jobs, and they didn’t come. They didn’t see the fact that [the Democratic Governor and Federal Government] were pouring in a lot of money to be helpful.”
“People in this part of the State, and I think across the State were feeling like they weren’t being listened to. Disenfranchised. Felt left behind and isolated.” “You had Obama and others coming here and promising jobs, and they didn’t come. They didn’t see the fact that [the Democratic Governor and Federal Government] were pouring in a lot of money to be helpful.”
McDonald’s Generation
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| ...when I get it MY way... |
Robert: I remember I was on a local talk radio program. There was this man whose wife had lost her GM job. And they were sitting in their house and the [2010 once-in-a-150-year flood] water was lapping up to their foundation. She was being told she’d have to relocate to Indiana or Texas. And this man just thought this was just “not right.” He wanted her job back. And the interviewer asked me, “so what can you do for this guy.” And I answered “nothing.” If that is what he wants we can’t do anything. We need to start talking about a different approach to things. She’s going to have to start trying to get a different kind of job. And it may not pay as much. But they didn’t want to hear that.
Robert: I refer to that as kind of the McDonald’s Generation. I want it now and I want it “my way.” And if I can’t have that, you aren’t helping me. You’ve got to face the reality of the situation you are in. I don’t think that there are enough people that understand that they’ve got to change, they just want to go back to their $30/hr. And I’m sorry.
“And so these people were disenfranchised. So Walker came in.”
Robert: I refer to that as kind of the McDonald’s Generation. I want it now and I want it “my way.” And if I can’t have that, you aren’t helping me. You’ve got to face the reality of the situation you are in. I don’t think that there are enough people that understand that they’ve got to change, they just want to go back to their $30/hr. And I’m sorry.
“And so these people were disenfranchised. So Walker came in.”
Republican Control
Walker Background - Fiscal
Robert explains that Walker’s public career has centered around tax cuts. Robert remembers this from his time as Milwaukee County Executive. He saved money by extending deferred maintenance. So when he came into office he “went in and said the size of State Government needed to be cut. In order for me to do that job we have to decertify Unions and be able to get rid of bad employees." Wisconsin was a pretty heavy employee-focused State. With the Tech College I negotiated contracts and if you had a bad employee it was nearly impossible to get rid of them. The State Employment Department would protect the employee, even if [the employee] was wrong or bad. And so there were a lot of employers who jumped on board. And Walker jumped into it almost from day one.”
Walker Background - Social
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| Governor Scott Walker |
Robert: His father is a preacher. He is pretty fundamentalist Christian so I think that is probably true. But he hasn’t been really obvious. And while I think it is his values, I haven’t seen that in any legislation. Personally I think he is close to Pence [in beliefs] but you don’t see any State legislation for the Gay Lesbian community. I think of him as equal opportunity. I don’t see him standing up for the rights of the elderly ...the disabled. He’ll whack those programs just like anything else.
Locking in the Republican Majority
Walker won and did a good job of appealing to his base -- in rural Wisconsin. He then attacked the public Unions (except for Police and Fire) -- This was Act 10. And then “Republicans got in and did the redistricting. We’ll see if this particular Supreme Court deals with it.”
Two Party Man
Peter: Do you consider yourself a liberal?
Robert: I consider myself a nothing. Because I was in the public sector I wasn’t allowed to be anything obvious. It prevented me from doing any campaigning, I couldn’t do any donating. I voted for George Bush. I voted for Bill Clinton. I voted for the second George Bush. I voted for Barack Obama. I go all over. Because I’d like to think that I listen to what their saying and evaluate is it realistic. And so I’m a nothing. I could go both ways. If you had to categorize me now, though, it would be “I’m a two party system, person.” I believe there are checks and balances in the two party system. I don’t see any of those checks and balances working when you have all one party in power. Now I see that in Wisconsin now that the Republican Party has taken over. I’m not a third party guy because I don’t think that they create enough mass to have an impact. I think those two parties are necessary to keep things in check.”
Specific issues: Guns, Foxconn and Tax CutsGuns
Guns
Peter: Are you a hunter?
Robert: No. Never have been.
Peter: Why not?
Robert: It was never in my family. My grandfather had a gun and hunted deer. But my dad never picked up on it so we never made time to do it. My wife’s father was a hunter. What I saw was that he didn’t really hunt. He went to the cabin and drank and got drunk and used the excuse of hunting to get away from the family. I’m not opposed to hunters. I’m not opposed to someone having a gun in the house and using it for recreational purposes.
Concealed carry
Robert recalls that a new law under Walker allows “concealed carry.” “I’m opposed to that. I don’t think we need people walking around the streets carrying guns all over. Robert recounts a story from when he is driving his 16 year old grandson to attend Space Camp in Huntsville, AL. They stop at a convenience store to “grab a sandwich.” “We walk into the convenience store and here is this lady, late 20’s, holding onto a little girl’s hand probably four or five years old, the other hand resting on the biggest pistol, strapped to her hip, I’ve ever seen. My grandson’s eyes at age 16 were ‘what’s going on here?’ I’m just opposed to people going around carrying guns. Transporting them in vehicles I don’t have a problem. That is what hunters do.” |
| Convenience Store Open Carry (out) |
Continuing on Robert recalls, “I was raised in Milwaukee. I went through the riots in the late 60’s. And I got shot at. Never once did I feel that I would be safer if I carried my own gun. I was in the military so I was forced to use a gun. So anything semi automatic or this bump stock. I’m definitely opposed.”
Too many guns in too few hands
Robert: 3% of people own 90% of guns. I listen to a radio out of Chicago that fact checked that and it is true. The US owns 400 million guns. The next closest country, I think was India, and they own 96 million guns. So we have 4 times as many guns as any other country controlled by 3% of the population.Robert: I’m not interested in taking away gun owners rights, therefore I guess I support the 2nd Amendment. But I think that there need to be restrictions on the type of guns that are out there. I don’t buy the argument that “I need a gun to protect myself.” The crooks will find a way to get a gun? Yeah, that is true. I can’t help that. Maybe that is why I live in rural Wisconsin rather than inner city, some place.
Foxconn
Dave: What is your take on Foxconn?
Robert: I don’t like it. Here are the three main points Robert expressed:
- Calculate based on 7 year Payback: “I go back enough years both with the economic development and the Tech College that I’m not a supporter to offer incentives to a business to locate in a certain area. I go back to an old statistic: you can attract someone here but within 7 years they are done. Harvard, IL brought in a Motorola plant and offered them a ton of incentives. They didn’t stay 5 years! And that plant has been sitting empty for over a decade. I don’t believe that incentives build a long term commitment to a community.”
- Be clear on the giveaways: “I’m also not in favor of signing off on things that are not clear. This whole Foxconn deal has never been clear to the public. Enough stuff has leaked out that we are waiving all of the environmental rules...allowing them to reroute wetlands.”
Robert: I don’t believe giving three billion dollars for, under the best circumstances 13,000 jobs -- do the math! This is the largest incentive, to any foreign country, anywhere in the US and I think it is too rich. The payback for me as a citizen of Wisconsin is 25 years. I think that is too long a term.
- Don’t believe 13,000 jobs: “I also don’t think they are going to create 13,000 jobs. This is a manufacturer who builds screens. Is that technology going to stay the same for 25 years? I don’t think so. This is no more than a ploy by Walker say, ‘I haven’t created enough jobs yet and I’m running for re-election.’ Now I can hold up that I created 13,000 jobs."
Tax Reform
Robert volunteers another topic on his mind: “I’m really opposed to this tax cut proposal coming out of the Fed. Because what I hear is that it is not so much a tax cut as it a job creation program. Well, wait a minute. Most employers in the United States are saying I can’t find enough workers for the jobs they have now. And we’re trying to create more jobs? Isn’t that going to make things worse? Especially if we limit immigration! That relates to Foxconn. We’re going to create 13,000 jobs but who's going to do ‘em? We don’t have the workforce now to do that. So that goes back to the policy makers sitting down and figuring out what they need to accomplish, and why.”
Robert: Now I’m not opposed to getting some money back. But if we are using a tax cut to grow jobs, where is the job training program? Why don’t we put in training and say we are going to give an incentive based on raising [potential employees’] level of skills.
Robert: Now I’m not opposed to getting some money back. But if we are using a tax cut to grow jobs, where is the job training program? Why don’t we put in training and say we are going to give an incentive based on raising [potential employees’] level of skills.
How to Bring People/ Politicians Together
Dave: Is bringing people together, everyone not getting everything they want. Is that a high value to you, something you think should happen?
Robert: I do.
Dave: How do we get there? What is the path?
Robert: During Obama’s 2nd campaign they asked Tom Brokaw, “why isn’t there bipartisanship any more?” I think his answer is 100% correct.”
Robert summarizes the issues as follows (in his words):
- The first thing is, there is too much money in politics. The amount of money it takes to be in office makes me beholden to you, as the donor, to me.
- The second thing he said is that there is too much media AND how instantaneous it is.
Robert holding up Tom Too much: Not responsible media, but all media, including all the stuff out on the internet which may or may not be true but appears to be legitimate media.- Instantaneous: When I go to vote you’ll know I didn’t vote “with” you instantaneously and you are cutting off my money. So I don’t vote my conscience.
Robert’s suggested actions are:
- “It begins with the change in law that says there is no limit to campaign finance.”
- “The election process lasts way too long.”
- “We’ve got to get back to electing people based on their merits rather than who can raise the most money. 40 hrs per week fund raising.” has got to go.
How will you use the Magic Wand?
When asked to choose the one change he would make with his Magic Wand Robert pauses. “Wow! I guess I would go back to ‘We need to go back to talk with each other about what is important.’ Figure out a way to get that to happen. Get back to the bipartisan cooperation. So we’re solving problems for people, not fighting over some ideology based on money.” Robert then adds, “But don’t ask me how to make THAT happen.”
Robert: It’s sad that you see all of these people after a massacre sharing common values. And then two days later “we’re done.” You saw that in Washington when they shot those [congressmen] in the baseball field. They came together. But within 72 hours they were blasting each other again.
Robert: We’ve got to recognize that we are in this together. We need to share some common ideas; work through these issues the best we can; and because I disagree with you, doesn’t mean you are an asshole. Maybe I’m an asshole because I disagree with you. But the point is let’s go back and talk about personal esteem and values, and recognize that differences of opinion don’t make you a bad person, it just means you have a different perspective. And if I sit and talk with you I’ll find out that that perspective is based on your experiences, your values, whatever and we can work through those things.
Robert: It’s sad that you see all of these people after a massacre sharing common values. And then two days later “we’re done.” You saw that in Washington when they shot those [congressmen] in the baseball field. They came together. But within 72 hours they were blasting each other again.
Robert: We’ve got to recognize that we are in this together. We need to share some common ideas; work through these issues the best we can; and because I disagree with you, doesn’t mean you are an asshole. Maybe I’m an asshole because I disagree with you. But the point is let’s go back and talk about personal esteem and values, and recognize that differences of opinion don’t make you a bad person, it just means you have a different perspective. And if I sit and talk with you I’ll find out that that perspective is based on your experiences, your values, whatever and we can work through those things.
Friday Fish Fry
We finish our conversation by planning another conversation the next night, Friday. Robert has invited us to join in a Wisconsin tradition: the Friday Fish Fry at a Supper Club (see Friday Fish Fry at the Supper Club).
-- Peter
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