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| The Sanctuary, we sat at the back which is a social hall with round tables |
We met with Pastor Samuel and Dr. Lonnie at Hope Community Church in Racine, Wisconsin in the afternoon of Monday, October 16, 2017. Pastor Jerry, retired from Grace Church joined us as these are friends of his and he had mentored Pastor Sam when he served Grace Church. We had mentioned to Pastor Jerry that we were interested in a wide variety of people for our Listening Tour and he arranged this interview partially to help us understand an African American perspective.
Pastor Sam is the lead pastor at Hope Community Church. Dr. Lonnie is a retired physician, a member of Hope, and on the Board of Elders. We agreed to be on a “first name” basis and started, as usual, with their back stories; how they came to be in Wisconsin now:
Pastor Sam is the lead pastor at Hope Community Church. Dr. Lonnie is a retired physician, a member of Hope, and on the Board of Elders. We agreed to be on a “first name” basis and started, as usual, with their back stories; how they came to be in Wisconsin now:
Lonnie’s Path to Racine
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| Dr. Lonnie, one of Hope's Elders |
Lonnie, a gentle and soft spoken older man, started. He practices internal medicine. In 1985, Lonnie looked to for a change in location from his position at a hospital in Milwaukee. He circulated his résumé and had some options. One was back to Baltimore, where he was from, one was in North Carolina, and one was in Racine which seemed to be the best option because it was a multi-specialty group. “It was like a blessing from the Lord. Everyone treated me and my family well.”
Peter asked him to go back before coming to Wisconsin and Lonnie said that he grew up in Hughesville, Southern Maryland. After he finished his undergraduate degree at Morgan State he decided to go to Wisconsin for a couple of years and then return home. Lonnie met and married his wife in Madison and is still in Wisconsin. He was a chemist for a couple of years and then completed medical school in Madison. He arrived in Madison in 1968. “It was an interesting time to be there,” Lonnie explained. He was in ROTC and was harassed when he wore the uniform. He had a chance to see how the media works: “You’d think that the whole campus was blowing up, but it wasn’t.” Lonnie finished his residency in Milwaukee and started his medical practice in Racine in 1980.
Peter inquired about his religion as a child. He was from a large (8 siblings) Catholic farm family. They were sharecroppers and grew tobacco. His family did the work and the white landowners took most of the profit. His dad was a bit volatile so they had to move around a lot when he was young, although they sometimes came back to places they had worked before. Lonnie was a dedicated Catholic and when in high school considered the priesthood: “I prayed on it and eventually decided against it.”
When he came to Wisconsin he found that his Catholicism was not enough to take him through the stresses he faced. Then he met Pat, who became his wife, and she asked him a lot of questions. He struggled with religion for quite a while but in 1978 “came to know the Lord.” He and Pat have two daughters and 7 granddaughters, and all live relatively nearby.
Peter inquired about his religion as a child. He was from a large (8 siblings) Catholic farm family. They were sharecroppers and grew tobacco. His family did the work and the white landowners took most of the profit. His dad was a bit volatile so they had to move around a lot when he was young, although they sometimes came back to places they had worked before. Lonnie was a dedicated Catholic and when in high school considered the priesthood: “I prayed on it and eventually decided against it.”
When he came to Wisconsin he found that his Catholicism was not enough to take him through the stresses he faced. Then he met Pat, who became his wife, and she asked him a lot of questions. He struggled with religion for quite a while but in 1978 “came to know the Lord.” He and Pat have two daughters and 7 granddaughters, and all live relatively nearby.
Pastor Sam’s Path to Racine
Peter then asked Pastor Sam for the same information. Sam recounted that he was an “army brat.” His dad was deployed in many places, including two tours of duty in Vietnam. This meant that his mom and grandmother spent more time with him. This was in the mid to late 1960’s in Mississippi, the height of the civil rights era. This shaped his early life. They lived adjacent to the town where Medgar Evers was from. He knew Charles Evers, who was the brother of Medgar. “The civil rights movement was not ‘just in the news’ for him, there was a personal connection.”Sam’s mother was an orphan and his father was a foster child. They both grew up in the same part of Mississippi. For both their faith in Christ was a significant part of getting through very difficult parts of their childhood. They also learned from Christians who stepped in to help when things got really hard.
When Sam was growing up, his family often attended military chapels. He explained that other committed Christians often avoid military chapels as the Chaplain is of whatever denomination happens to be assigned at the moment, and the assignments rotate often. In 1974, when he was 11 years old, Sam made a personal commitment of faith when his father was deployed. He was not planning on becoming a pastor because his father’s birth was a result of an affair his grandmother had with her pastor. “The Lord is great, but pastors were not so much. I wanted to walk with Christ; I did not want to become a preacher.”
West Point to Bible College
He wanted to be a career military officer and attended the U.S. Military Academy at West Point; he expected to serve his country in that capacity. Sam kept injuring himself, and although he was otherwise excelling, prayed about his future. By that time he had met people who could show him how he could serve the Lord. He attended Columbia Bible College at Ft. Jackson, South Carolina. He met missionaries who worked as cross cultural missionaries and changed his major to ‘International Cross-Cultural.’ One of the requirements was serve in another country.
Love in the Philippines
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| Pastor Sam and his wife, Luz |
Pastor Sam went to the Philippines, first to an international conference in 1989. Here he met “a special someone,” Luz, a Filipina who was serving a ministry for children on Smoky Mountain, where 20,000 people live on a garbage dump. He understood that the Lord was bringing them together. She was a single mom and they married; this meant that he was a dad. He knew that he could not remain in the military and be the dad he wanted to be. Although he wanted to be a missionary, he had a huge student loan debt that he could not pay on a missionary’s salary so they returned to the States.
Planting Churches in the Upper Midwest
They decided to return to Columbia to finish his seminary and they looked for “church planters” who wanted to start new churches in difficult places. They learned of an opportunity in Cleveland Ohio. This was right around the time when Rodney King had been assaulted and they went to an area where Cleveland was still scarred from riots in the 60’s. It was also at the site of the oldest housing project in the United States. They planted a church there. His wife had two daughters when they married and their next (third of four) daughter was born in Cleveland.
One of the things that was in their hearts was being part of a church in a multicultural setting. Sam and Luz had been having a hard time finding a church in South Carolina that was multi-cultural enough for their family to fit in. So church planting was a gift from the Lord. Next they accepted a position at Grace Church in Detroit. This was also at the time of the “Promise Keepers” and one of the efforts of that group was racial reconciliation. This was a difficult assignment because the church had major problems, including a plummeting budget. There were staff layoffs, and as a newer hire Sam was laid off. He met Pastor Jerry at the time because Jerry went to the church to consult for them on changes to be made.
Sam was asked to plant another church. He loved doing this but it was very difficult work. Sam and Luz prayed on it and despite reservations, agreed to start Eastside Church in Detroit in 2002. “It is still going strong,” Sam reports proudly. He continues, “Planting a church is like being a parent. It has its own personality. If you plant God’s church instead of ‘your church’ it is going to have a personality.” Once the church was off the ground their work complete and they started looking again.
Racine at lastOne of the things that was in their hearts was being part of a church in a multicultural setting. Sam and Luz had been having a hard time finding a church in South Carolina that was multi-cultural enough for their family to fit in. So church planting was a gift from the Lord. Next they accepted a position at Grace Church in Detroit. This was also at the time of the “Promise Keepers” and one of the efforts of that group was racial reconciliation. This was a difficult assignment because the church had major problems, including a plummeting budget. There were staff layoffs, and as a newer hire Sam was laid off. He met Pastor Jerry at the time because Jerry went to the church to consult for them on changes to be made.
Sam was asked to plant another church. He loved doing this but it was very difficult work. Sam and Luz prayed on it and despite reservations, agreed to start Eastside Church in Detroit in 2002. “It is still going strong,” Sam reports proudly. He continues, “Planting a church is like being a parent. It has its own personality. If you plant God’s church instead of ‘your church’ it is going to have a personality.” Once the church was off the ground their work complete and they started looking again.
It was at this point that they learned that Grace Church in Racine was looking for an Outreach Pastor with some mission responsibilities, so they accepted a position at with Pastor Jerry at Grace. After a while, he and Luz felt that it was time to plant one more church, this time in Racine. There desire was to establish a multi-cultural church. After six years at Grace for 6 years they established Hope Community Church two years ago.
Supporting Missionary Work in the Philippines and Beyond
When Sam and Luz were in Detroit they founded a nonprofit called Angelstone to do work in the Philippines. It is still going; still working on Smoky Mountain, with Muslims in the Philippines and now in India.
The City of Racine in the 80’s
We returned to interviewing Lonnie, in part because he has lived in Racine longer, to ask about the history of Racine. We have heard that “Racine had lost its confidence” in the 1970’s. When Lonnie came here in 1985 Racine itself was on the downturn. But the medical profession was cutting edge and there were multi-specialty groups instead of individual practices. It was friendly, medically, and he felt more at home here than he had in Milwaukee. He bonded with his patients and still sees former patients in town. Racine was less cosmopolitan than Milwaukee, more conservative, and had better family values.
Peter asked about economic trends and Lonnie felt that they were generally down, though some of the remaining big companies such as Johnson Wax have given it some stability. Peter then asked about the Foxconn development. Lonnie is looking forward to it. Healthy employers are good for the community. He also hopes that a more stable educational system, including with additional income and more progressive things would help. His granddaughter had a chance to go to summer school in Waukesha (a wealthy community east of Milwaukee) this year and was impressed by the quality of the education. The Racine community has remained somewhat closed. He believes increased employment should lead to more progressive educational values.
Peter asked about economic trends and Lonnie felt that they were generally down, though some of the remaining big companies such as Johnson Wax have given it some stability. Peter then asked about the Foxconn development. Lonnie is looking forward to it. Healthy employers are good for the community. He also hopes that a more stable educational system, including with additional income and more progressive things would help. His granddaughter had a chance to go to summer school in Waukesha (a wealthy community east of Milwaukee) this year and was impressed by the quality of the education. The Racine community has remained somewhat closed. He believes increased employment should lead to more progressive educational values.
Hope (multicultural) Community Church
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| Hope Community Church |
Then we discuss multicultural churches. Pastor Sam wants “more than window-dressing multiculturalism.” At Hope, congregants spend a lot of time in fellowship, hanging out together for a long time after each service is finished. When people get to know each other, barriers fall. Pastor Jerry pointed out that Luz is a wonderful hostess. Sam said that when people get close they share problems that they have and each tries to help out with the problems of others. As they are smaller he can “call an audible” and alter the Service if appropriate. Grace has been really helpful to Hope in the formation of the church. At first Sam did not want the building because it was physically close to Grace, but the Lord apparently wanted them to be there and now he is quite happy with it.
Black Lives Matter
At this point Pastor Jerry asked if we are going to ask Sam about current events such as Black Lives Matter. Peter addresses it, but first describes our visits to Milwaukee and how we have heard about racial tensions there from several people and in several ways.When we came to Racine and the Olympia Brown Church and saw their “Black Lives Matter” banner on the church. “Here you two are, as leaders in this community who are African American.” Peter asked: “Are the issues in Milwaukee representative of Racine? How do you see race relations in Racine? And, finally, how does it work when you have a predominantly White church that has a Black Lives Matter banner?”
At this point Pastor Jerry interrupts again to say that there is an African American church that has an “All Lives Matter” banner, and it is close to Olympia Brown.
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| Black Lives Matter Banner - Downtown UU Church |
Pastor Sam: I think that you have two people trying to reach across barriers. You have a “predominantly majority context” church which is saying that this is an issue. I spoke at a conference in Texas and the phrase ‘Black Lives Matter’ means different things to different people. For some it is a revolutionary cry that is anti-American. For me, as an African American, I mean, the words just sing to me. I’m old enough to know a history where they didn’t matter. My parents definitely knew that. It’s not a movement, per-se. I know enough to know why that is an important phrase, experientially speaking. The words themselves make sense. People know enough to understand “of course they do” and it is not that no one else’s life matters. In a history where we’re 3/5 of a person, you start breaking that down historically, you’ve got “strange fruit; people hanging from trees,” you’ve got this whole history where we’ve got to say that Black Lives Matter!
Pastor Sam: But then you have an African American pastor who certainly understands that but he’s not just trying to make a declarative statement, he is trying to reach out with an olive branch and build bridges, so he puts up a banner that says ‘All Lives Matter To Him.’ He means that everybody is important to God. From a Gospel perspective he says that Jesus came to save all.
Peter then went back to the earlier part of his question about racial profiling that exists to this day. Pastor Sam responded, “Here’s the difficulty that I find as an African American Evangelical, who owns both of those labels. If I am with a White Evangelical and they get riled up say at Kapernick’s kneeling about police things, for example, or perhaps about a bigger thing….”
Pastor Sam:We were in Cleveland and Detroit. When we were in Cleveland I got stopped a lot, and in Cleveland my wife and I would take bets on how many times I would hear the ‘N word’ in a day, literally I heard it every day. EVERY DAY. We were in Cleveland for 6 years. I don’t know how to tell someone how that affects you when you hear it every day. Or, one day we were going to the (suburban) church that sponsored us; I was going to preach that morning, and a police officer pulls us over. My daughter was in the car. The officer asked “what are you doing?” I said that I was going to the church to preach. And the officer said, I’m going to quote him, ”Get your ass to that church and preach, then get your ass back to Cleveland.” And I’m going to PREACH in twenty minutes! I have to get back in the car, get back in the mode of preaching and then I have to get my ass in that car and get back to Cleveland. You don’t know how to tell people…. What would you do if that was you? This happened all the time in Cleveland.
Pastor Sam: I almost got in trouble in Detroit when somebody pulled me over for a good thing, this officer was in my church and he just wanted to help me, and I just was on edge! You don’t know how to tell people about this. I equate it to this Captain Kirk (Star Trek) episode where he tried to beam up and something went wrong. He got stuck in between places. They could see each other, but they couldn’t communicate. That is what it is like being a Black Evangelical in a White world, you can see each other, you’re kind of in the same space, but you are having two different experiences in the same space. It’s very hard to explain what you are seeing and feeling to them and vice-versa. You are taking up space together, but very seldom do you have real fellowship or real communication.
Pastor Sam: But then you have an African American pastor who certainly understands that but he’s not just trying to make a declarative statement, he is trying to reach out with an olive branch and build bridges, so he puts up a banner that says ‘All Lives Matter To Him.’ He means that everybody is important to God. From a Gospel perspective he says that Jesus came to save all.
Peter then went back to the earlier part of his question about racial profiling that exists to this day. Pastor Sam responded, “Here’s the difficulty that I find as an African American Evangelical, who owns both of those labels. If I am with a White Evangelical and they get riled up say at Kapernick’s kneeling about police things, for example, or perhaps about a bigger thing….”
Pastor Sam:We were in Cleveland and Detroit. When we were in Cleveland I got stopped a lot, and in Cleveland my wife and I would take bets on how many times I would hear the ‘N word’ in a day, literally I heard it every day. EVERY DAY. We were in Cleveland for 6 years. I don’t know how to tell someone how that affects you when you hear it every day. Or, one day we were going to the (suburban) church that sponsored us; I was going to preach that morning, and a police officer pulls us over. My daughter was in the car. The officer asked “what are you doing?” I said that I was going to the church to preach. And the officer said, I’m going to quote him, ”Get your ass to that church and preach, then get your ass back to Cleveland.” And I’m going to PREACH in twenty minutes! I have to get back in the car, get back in the mode of preaching and then I have to get my ass in that car and get back to Cleveland. You don’t know how to tell people…. What would you do if that was you? This happened all the time in Cleveland.
Pastor Sam: I almost got in trouble in Detroit when somebody pulled me over for a good thing, this officer was in my church and he just wanted to help me, and I just was on edge! You don’t know how to tell people about this. I equate it to this Captain Kirk (Star Trek) episode where he tried to beam up and something went wrong. He got stuck in between places. They could see each other, but they couldn’t communicate. That is what it is like being a Black Evangelical in a White world, you can see each other, you’re kind of in the same space, but you are having two different experiences in the same space. It’s very hard to explain what you are seeing and feeling to them and vice-versa. You are taking up space together, but very seldom do you have real fellowship or real communication.
Frustration and exhaustion
Pastor Sam: So that’s the challenge of this. People are trying to deal with this. People are frustrated. Younger people are more frustrated. My dad’s fear for me was that I would be less patient than him. I grew up with ‘don’t eat here, don’t drink here, go to the back door.’ The Army had just integrated and there were issues with that when he was first in the Army and he said that my expectations were higher than his.
My daughter’s expectations are even higher than mine! My daughter Joanna is very kind and patient, but she is angry. She doesn’t show it, but she is angry all the time and she has to “stuff it” all the time. My concern is what happens if something happens and she just comes uncorked some day? That could cost her life if she is in the wrong place. This is a vital concern. So when people start out with: ”Why don’t you just shut up? Why don’t you just sit down?” They have no clue what we go through, NO CLUE! If people don’t recognize me as Sam Jackson, Pastor of Hope Community church, well to them I’m just another nigger. If I’m seen like that, well there’s danger in being seen like that. So every hurt piles on that and you have to say as a Christian, take it to the Cross. “Lord help me. Let me deal with that.” But it gets harder as I get older.
Peter asks why it gets harder. Sam replies: “How many times do I have to hear the “N word?” I just get tired of it. If there is a racial component to their comments…I am a patient person, but my patience is being weighted down.”
My daughter’s expectations are even higher than mine! My daughter Joanna is very kind and patient, but she is angry. She doesn’t show it, but she is angry all the time and she has to “stuff it” all the time. My concern is what happens if something happens and she just comes uncorked some day? That could cost her life if she is in the wrong place. This is a vital concern. So when people start out with: ”Why don’t you just shut up? Why don’t you just sit down?” They have no clue what we go through, NO CLUE! If people don’t recognize me as Sam Jackson, Pastor of Hope Community church, well to them I’m just another nigger. If I’m seen like that, well there’s danger in being seen like that. So every hurt piles on that and you have to say as a Christian, take it to the Cross. “Lord help me. Let me deal with that.” But it gets harder as I get older.
Peter asks why it gets harder. Sam replies: “How many times do I have to hear the “N word?” I just get tired of it. If there is a racial component to their comments…I am a patient person, but my patience is being weighted down.”
Milwaukee and Racine Compared
Sam uses this experience to talk about Milwaukee: “these people have experienced difficult times.”
Lonnie adds, “My wife and I lived there for seven years. We lived in the Northwest part. It was very segmented. If you went to the South side, there was the Latin American section, and further on the South and West side there were Whites. When I was outside of my own area I felt like a stranger. Even now; I went there to pick up an instrument case, it was not my home.”
He continues, “You know this, Sam, I think you felt this also…you see an African American down the street and you have never seen him before, and you wave at each other. You connect. Racine is not as compartmentalized as Milwaukee. But I have found that if people recognize me from work they will be friendly. And if they didn’t I was just considered like another Black person. And I kind of use that like a test. If the person didn’t recognize me and they were friendly, that person has a higher character. I would get the distinct impression that if they recognize you, well, you are OK, and if they don’t, you are in that ‘other’ group.Diverse Lives at Hope Community Church
Peter turns to Sam and asks, “Now that you have created this diverse church, can you get together, let down your guard and share this pain, anger and perspective in a safe environment?”Sam says, “I still exercise caution as a leader. I want to encourage and inspire. On my worst day, I’m not talking about my worst day, in those terms, with the congregation. It’s like being in a war. If you lose half of your troops you still say that ‘we have more than they have.’ You have to find a way to make it sound good. But I do want people to feel free to ask hard questions and know that they are not going to get shot down. One of the things that I say on a personal level is that ‘even if you think something is going to be offensive, feel free to ask.’ We are never going to make progress if they can’t talk. I know that their heart’s desire is to love their neighbor as they love themselves, even if that is not how it comes off when they talk.”
I like to say that we need to look beyond the rough edges and say ‘if this person is willing to try, we have to try to meet them.’ At the same time it hurts to hear things, but you have to reach past that. I hope that Hope is that kind of place.
Racine and Race
At this point Pastor Jerry joins the conversation directing his comments to Lonnie and Pastor Sam.
Pastor Jerry: At the risk of hijacking this, in terms of Racine, we have an African American police chief, Art Howell. He’s as good as they get. In my opinion he is well respected by everyone in the community. He earned his way; he didn’t just get the job because he is a black person. So, does this help us in terms of counteracting all that which is going on in Milwaukee, the gangs and the shootings and all of that? I see him when he walks through the community he has respect. My second question is that, in terms of Mayor of Racine, I was extremely sad that Pastor Melvin (who lost in a primary) did not get in there. If he had made it that would mean that we would have had an African American mayor. The third is that, in terms of schools, the guy who is going to come in is an African American, I don’t know him, but he’s next in line. Two out of three isn’t bad. So my question is: Is that helpful for our community?Pastor Sam: I think that as an individual, he is a person of integrity, he’s walked that way since he was a patrol officer. I think that every example you have is someone who is technically and tactically proficient as well as having the ability to identify with a large proportion of the population is good. The challenge becomes, for anyone you have in that position is, there are limits to the iconic role. For example, when President Obama was elected people would say, “Now you’ve made it, no more complaining.” Or, “you’ve got a Police Chief now what are you complaining about?” So the other context of folks (majority community) think that just because you have a Chief now that everything is solved. It is going to be helpful in order to address issues that will be ongoing. If the iconic thing doesn’t displace the reality of the ongoing work I think it is cool and that Art builds with that he is doing the job. He is there and that’s a very positive thing for him.
I ask, “How do you think that he can help his officers overcome their fear of Black people in order to keep them from pulling their guns and possibly shoot someone just because they are Black?”
Pastor Sam: I think that there have been many instances. But he issued a statement and I think that it was just the right statement of what he would say as a police officer and what he would say as a Black man. He had that balance. There are so many things that I can’t remember, but the issues were incendiary enough that he had to say something, and he did. I think that the wisdom he has as a man, and the strength that he has as a Black man all came together beautifully. It didn’t make everybody happy. There are some folks who said, “you should have been more hard line; you should have said that Blue Lives Matter,” and he didn’t care. He looked at what he had to say as a Police Chief to make sure that we have a handle at what is going on and we’re handling this in a mature way. He had the integrity and the strength of character to do that.
I asked, “Do his officers have the ability to adopt that too?” Sam replied, “I don’t see that we’ve had the kind of things happen here that you’ve had in some other places and that has to be the leadership that reflects that.”
Pastor Jerry added, “That’s my editorial comment. Leadership matters and Art grew up in Racine, so he’s a product of everything in Racine. He grew up through the system, he has had offers to go ‘big time’ other places, but he loves the city. He is a leader and I think that what Sam is reflecting is what we have. I personally think that is because of Art Howell, to a large degree, so what I’m saying is that leadership matters.
Dr. Lonnie contributed, “I would agree, he does a real good job. And I think that with this being a small community, compared to Milwaukee, he is approachable, whereas in Milwaukee, unless you knew some of the staff personally, there is nobody that you could talk to and they would assure you that they would look into some of those matters.
Immigration and DACA
Peter: I want to shift gears a little bit here, but still touching on the same thing, we’re from the San Francisco Bay Area. There are a lot of DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Admission) kids who are friends of ours. My girls went to a public high school where 60% of the kids were Hispanic, and a large portion of them were not documented. There is a lot of effort to support ‘the dreamers.’ With our current administration there is a pall of fear within the immigrant community. With Charlottesville there is fear within all non-white communities. I think that this must be part of your job as a pastor is to help your community deal with fear, and as a community support each other. Do you have the DACA experience among your membership?
Pastor Sam: As long as I’m being recorded I’ll just say this (at which point both Peter and I jumped in and offered to turn the recorder off but he continued…) as a Minister of the Gospel I have been called to serve anyone who approaches me. In my pastoral experience that’s been the breadth of what’s imaginable in terms of service. There is no one we have ever turned away from serving in the name of Christ, we wouldn’t do that and it has helped us serve people in some amazingly vulnerable situations.
Peter asked, “And the second is how do you help them especially with fear? How do you use your skill, your experience and the Scripture and Gospel to help?”
Pastor Sam: As long as I’m being recorded I’ll just say this (at which point both Peter and I jumped in and offered to turn the recorder off but he continued…) as a Minister of the Gospel I have been called to serve anyone who approaches me. In my pastoral experience that’s been the breadth of what’s imaginable in terms of service. There is no one we have ever turned away from serving in the name of Christ, we wouldn’t do that and it has helped us serve people in some amazingly vulnerable situations.
Peter asked, “And the second is how do you help them especially with fear? How do you use your skill, your experience and the Scripture and Gospel to help?”
Pastor Sam: We’ve seen this, depending on who the leader is. On a national level it is a certain way right now but in a locality, there can be local leaders who say, “we’re after this, we’re after that” and we’ve worked with some folks who are in really vulnerable situations and the fear was right up front.
Lonnie informs us that his granddaughters know people who are undocumented. They treat them just as they would any other person. Sometimes they say that their friends’ parents don’t want to drive anywhere because of the increased risk. The fear is here, but he hasn’t been in a situation where he has to deal with it more directly.
Lonnie informs us that his granddaughters know people who are undocumented. They treat them just as they would any other person. Sometimes they say that their friends’ parents don’t want to drive anywhere because of the increased risk. The fear is here, but he hasn’t been in a situation where he has to deal with it more directly.
Who is Responsible for Supporting Society’s Needy?
Peter mentions the division we see considering opinions about the [proper] role of government and asks, “Is the government effective or not? At the same time we have to decide how to help people who can’t help themselves. What is our obligation? Is that the government’s obligation? Is that a non-profit or church or community obligation?”
Lonnie: I see the role of government as one who should make sure that everyone plays fairly. If regulations are needed, they should provide those regulations. I tend to be more of a consumer advocate. Big businesses have a tendency to take advantage of individuals; they tend to want certain rules that let them make bundles of money from people.
Lonnie: I see the role of government as one who should make sure that everyone plays fairly. If regulations are needed, they should provide those regulations. I tend to be more of a consumer advocate. Big businesses have a tendency to take advantage of individuals; they tend to want certain rules that let them make bundles of money from people.
Lonnie holds up ‘Late Payment Fees’ as an example of business over-reaching. He says that “the heart of man is definitely wicked, so we need monitoring. As big business becomes more global government has to become able to deal with global issues
Peter asks how we should take care of people who can’t take care of themselves. Lonnie responds, “In the ideal situation churches could have a role in doing that, and maybe charitable organizations may not be doing a good job, so someone has to step up to make sure that help is being provided.”
Peter asks how we should take care of people who can’t take care of themselves. Lonnie responds, “In the ideal situation churches could have a role in doing that, and maybe charitable organizations may not be doing a good job, so someone has to step up to make sure that help is being provided.”
Peter asks, “When someone says ‘safety net’ what does that conjure up for you?”
Lonnie: When I think of ‘safety net’ I think of healthcare. When someone has a rare genetic disease and they would be liable for all of the medical expenses, should they have the entire responsibility for that? I’d say that in terms of helping your brothers and sisters, other people should step in and help them out. I had a situation in my family that was very fortunate. My son-in-law was diagnosed with leukemia last year and it was about two months after he started a new job. His insurance had kicked in, so he received all of the health insurance that he needed. If the situation had been different, had it happened two months before, the whole family would have been wiped out financially. If that had happened, perhaps churches could have had a role and government too.
Sam: If you look at it historically, government imposed some of the problem. Slavery was legal, in part of the nation we had systemic problems that came from government-backed policies, so if you look at that at the national level, that’s not undone with the snap of a finger. People have been treated differently. Look at Lonnie’s family; they were sharecroppers. Look at mine with a similar background. Compare that with people who came to Wisconsin years earlier and invested in land, sold it, and got a windfall. For Lonnie’s family and mine that wasn’t even a possibility. You have generation, after generation, generation that suffered. We have to help people deal with that, whether it is affirmative action or something else. When I was at Columbia with other African American pastors each of us had a miracle story of how we got there. Even though we all had these miracle stories, and we were very happy to have them, when we talked with our majority brothers and sisters there was a pipeline that got them there. There was a system that got them there. They are part of a movement. Even when I got to Grace I felt that we were salmon; we were swimming upstream the whole time!
Pastor Sam: It takes partnerships to make it happen. If “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” are God given rights, like it says in the Declaration of Independence, then healthcare is part of that, right? If life is an unalienable right, well, sustaining life is part of that right! So if we break it down, it is more complex. Just because someone is born into a poverty situation that dictates that they can’t have health care? That’s one thing I admired about Ted Kennedy. He said that his family was in a waiting room and there was somebody that was dying and the Kennedy relative wasn’t. There was only one difference. The Kennedy’s had money. So that convinced him. With all the other things that were a mess in his life that convinced him. He fought for that until he died. He said that it just wasn’t right that he, as a Kennedy had access to healthcare and others didn’t. It took a real-life situation for him to see that. That means we should not to get in the way of churches who want to help people if they can, but government has to help too. This nation has enough resources to make that happen. It is complicated, but there are solutions.
Peter wants to confirm that he said that the Declaration of Independence includes the right to health care… Pastor Sam says, “Yes, it does. If life is an unalienable right, sustaining it is a part of that.”
Sam: If you look at it historically, government imposed some of the problem. Slavery was legal, in part of the nation we had systemic problems that came from government-backed policies, so if you look at that at the national level, that’s not undone with the snap of a finger. People have been treated differently. Look at Lonnie’s family; they were sharecroppers. Look at mine with a similar background. Compare that with people who came to Wisconsin years earlier and invested in land, sold it, and got a windfall. For Lonnie’s family and mine that wasn’t even a possibility. You have generation, after generation, generation that suffered. We have to help people deal with that, whether it is affirmative action or something else. When I was at Columbia with other African American pastors each of us had a miracle story of how we got there. Even though we all had these miracle stories, and we were very happy to have them, when we talked with our majority brothers and sisters there was a pipeline that got them there. There was a system that got them there. They are part of a movement. Even when I got to Grace I felt that we were salmon; we were swimming upstream the whole time!
Pastor Sam: It takes partnerships to make it happen. If “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” are God given rights, like it says in the Declaration of Independence, then healthcare is part of that, right? If life is an unalienable right, well, sustaining life is part of that right! So if we break it down, it is more complex. Just because someone is born into a poverty situation that dictates that they can’t have health care? That’s one thing I admired about Ted Kennedy. He said that his family was in a waiting room and there was somebody that was dying and the Kennedy relative wasn’t. There was only one difference. The Kennedy’s had money. So that convinced him. With all the other things that were a mess in his life that convinced him. He fought for that until he died. He said that it just wasn’t right that he, as a Kennedy had access to healthcare and others didn’t. It took a real-life situation for him to see that. That means we should not to get in the way of churches who want to help people if they can, but government has to help too. This nation has enough resources to make that happen. It is complicated, but there are solutions.
Peter wants to confirm that he said that the Declaration of Independence includes the right to health care… Pastor Sam says, “Yes, it does. If life is an unalienable right, sustaining it is a part of that.”
Magic Wand Question
Peter then raised the ‘Magic Wand’ question: “If you had a magic wand and you could use it to make one change; locally, in the State, nationally, in the world, what change would you make?”
Lonnie asked that we start with Sam. After we all laugh a bit at the problem of a genie with only one wish, Sam says, “If you could take hatred out of the human heart many things would be resolved. If the human heart was holy and without hatred you wouldn’t have sin and avarice and things getting in the way, then we could work things out.”Lonnie offers his wish: “It would be that everyone recognizes what the Lord made them for, what He put them here to do.”
With that, Pastor Jerry offers a prayer for all of us to close the interview. First he asks for a personal update for Sam and Lonnie and then offers a prayer calling for humility, awe, gratitude, worship and personal blessing. Jerry also angles for an invitation to preach at Hope. We are pleased to see on Hope's website that on November 5th, Jerry did preach!
We walked out into a Racine autumn afternoon, gratified for this intense and informative afternoon with these amazing people.
-- David
So MANY important points, again, but I love this from Pastor Sam: "One of the things that I say on a personal level is that ‘even if you think something is going to be offensive, feel free to ask.’"
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