Extra Credit Theological Topics with Jerry

Conversation Mobile Conference Room

Dave, Pastor Jerry and I squeezed in an extra hour on our last day to circle back and discuss several theological topics.  Dave and I had made a list of a eight topics about which we would like some clarification from Jerry.  So we sat in our RV in the Racine Harbor parking lot.  We turned the comfortable chairs toward each other for an hour-long, “extra credit” conversation before driving to our final conversation.  As you can see from the list, we didn’t get to all eight.  But we did have a rich conversation.

Exclusive [path to Eternal Life and Heaven]

Pressing Topics to Discuss with Pastor Jerry

I begin by asking about the belief evangelicals have that their path is the exclusive path to eternal  life and heaven.  Jerry clarifies, “You would use the word ‘exclusive.’  But in the words of Jesus he says, ‘I am the way, the truth and the light.  And no one comes to the Father except through me.”  Jerry points out, “So there is the ‘one way.’  The exclusivity of Christ.”

Jerry then goes on to explain why Jesus is in this role as the exclusive path to God.  In summary (although I have the recording and transcript for those interested):

• Jesus lived a sinless life.  100% perfect.

• God is just.  This is big.  Humans are imperfect.  We will sin. “there needs to be consequences, punishment in dealing with our sins.”  Jerry asks rhetorically, “We all believe in justice.  Do you want you God not to believe in justice?  To wink at sin?”  So what are God’s choices?  Jerry continues, “Because the ultimate part of justice of God is death.  Death physically and death spiritually.”
  
• God is also mercy, grace and love.  So He “made the solution and the solution was in Jesus Christ.”  God created Jesus who died on the cross to atone for all of our sins.  Jerry concluded, Jesus “was able to then die and satisfy the justice of God and take upon himself, our sins, our unrighteousness.”
  
• This way God is able to be “loving and holy and merciful and gracious AND just.”

That said, there is a moment in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus seems to be having second thoughts.  Jerry reminds us of the moment when, as written in Luke 22:42, Jesus asks God to “take this cup of suffering away from me.”  But Jerry says this would have been impossible.  Jesus could only play his role if he was sinless.  Thus he must be sacrificed.

“I’m in Jesus [Christ]”

Jerry poses us a question, “So we like to answer the question ‘Why should I let you into heaven?’  What would your answer be?   Well there is only one right answer.  And that answer for us, is, ‘I’m in Jesus.’  Because Jesus has done it all for me and I have trusted him by faith for my salvation, for my eternity for my forgiveness of sins.  And therefore I am clothed in his righteousness and when I stand before God, God sees Jesus, he sees Jesus in me.”

The Exclusiveness is not us (evangelicals) it is the Gospel

We raise the point that this “exclusiveness” sounds arrogant toward the many religious people of other faiths.  And the Pastor at Grace Church on Sunday acknowledges as much.  (His reflection on this concludes with the logic that other faiths are no less arrogant.)  Jerry explains referring to the sermon, “So when he says that it sounds arrogant.  That’s the Gospel by the way.”

Will non-Christians have eternal life?

We press to double confirm with Jerry that he does not expect to find the Dalai Lama or Mahatma Gandhi in Heaven.

Peter: But Gandhi [would he be in heaven]?

Jerry: No, he would probably not.

Later in our conversation I press ahead: “Let’s take the Dalai Lama.  The Dalai Lama has an intense relationship with God.  But there is no Jesus in that relationship.”

Pastor Jerry and Peter

J: Okay, how does he have that relationship? In other words, the Dalai Lama is culturally anointed as being the representative of Buddhism.

Peter: That is your interpretation. But I don’t think that that would be his interpretation.

Jerry: Let me put it this way.  How many empty graves are there in religions across… There is only one. You can still go to the Dalai Lama and he is in his tomb.  That is why I said the resurrection is the lynch pin. Because that is the key consequence. He’s [Dalai Lama] still in his tomb.  There’s only one empty tomb.  And that is Jesus’.  That is why Easter is the pivotal.  Christmas is good but Easter is the pivotal.

Peter: So Mahatma Gandhi, the Dalai Lama are not going to have eternal life the way you see it.

Jerry: Yes.

How about non-Evangelical Christians?

Catholics...and a path to heaven on good works

David: Now Don (see Blog: Evangelical Lawyer) was telling us that the reason he drew away from the Catholics was that their approach to going heaven was doing good works. Is that not a path to heaven?

Jerry: That is a complex question but on the surface, no.  You are not going to get to heaven on your personal merit badges because they don’t count.  You can’t get enough of them.  The standard is 100% perfection.  You understand why; because God is 100% holy. And he cannot look on sin or have anything to do with sin.  He is not an imperfect God.  He is a just, perfect God.  So, there is nothing we can do.  Now don’t write off good works.  Jesus says that we should do good works so men around us can see those good works or else why bother. They come from who we are as Christians.  The Book of James really tries to confront what some people would view as a dichotomy of faith and works. And James says that Faith without works is dead.  Works without faith are dead.  So we need to understand how to do both of those because our faith is demonstrated… If someone does not have good works then we would question the reality of who they are.  But works alone won’t get you there because you won’t measure up.  Okay, nobody bats 1000.  Mother Teresa doesn’t bat 1000.  Billy Graham doesn’t bat 1000.  Ghandi doesn’t bat 1000.

Peter: Mother Teresa is Catholic.  So she is not going to go [to heaven]?

Jerry: No, no, no, no.  I don’t want to go there.  I don’t want to go with Mother Teresa because she is in a technical sense a Christian who prays in Jesus and believes in Jesus.  And there are going to be a lot of Catholics in heaven.  And we’re going to be surprised.  I have an aunt who I’ve talked with who is going to be there.  I have a cousin who's going to be there.  They still attend their Catholic church.  And they do the rituals. 

The Two Problematic Things about Catholicism

Jerry: Here’s the two things about Catholicism that separate us, that are problematic. One is the authority of the Church.  So in other words, we have, what I call a single authority, the scriptures.  They have the scriptures PLUS the teachings of the church. Now that in history has gone back and forth.  So we had, what was it Pope Pius, I forget their order who swung the Church back to a very conservative and ultimately the Catholicism, "which was supposed to be." And now we have Pope Francis who has swung it back the other way.  So that is the tension in any organization.  That is the problem; the basis of authority. They have scripture as they interpret it. That is a whole other question. How do you interpret scripture?  How do you know it is reliable?  That will take us all afternoon.  But they have scripture AND the teaching of the Church. [Two], they also have the seven sacraments.  So you must do the seven sacraments.  In fact the sacrament of baptism of infants is what regenerates you in Catholicism.  That makes you a believer.  That is what deals with your depravity.  That enables you to stand before God.  It takes it away.  That why it's always faster to baptise the infant. (18:37) and then you do the sacraments. Technically if you study Catholicism you don’t really go to heaven, you go to some stage of purgatory, according to how you did these sacraments. That is why Vince Lombardi went to church every day. So, anyway, that is Catholicism.  The church authority and the importance of the sacraments.

Protestants, including Evangelicals

Peter: So let's stay with Christians for a minute.  With Christians some of them you’ll find in Heaven if they don’t get too confused by the Church’s directive.  Help me, how many different Christians will be in heaven, and why will the others not be in heaven -- whether a Lutheran, a UCC, Congregationalist....

Jerry: One watershed.  What have you done with Christ in your personal life.  And belief, biblically speaking is not just intellectual.   It’s very important in an intellectual sense to believe facts.  So these are real facts.  Jesus was in fact a human being, a historical figure, He did indeed rise from the dead, He was born an infant.  All of those facts.  But it’s not enough.  The Bible says, “The demons believe.”  The demons, they believe intellectually so the key then is to what you do with that.  I like to use the word “surrender,” “accept” those are words that are used.  “Make him the leader of your life.”

Peter: That is what is celebrated by the adult baptism?

Jerry: Yes.  However, you don’t need to be baptised to get into heaven. The thief on the cross.  Baptism has no salvific (leads to salvation) implications to it. It is just for our personal commitment and witness.  We are called to that, to believe and be baptised. [The] Thief on the Cross wasn’t baptised.  So your question is who is going to be in heaven?  I’m going to be really surprised by who is in heaven.  I don’t know.  There are going to be a lot of Baptists who aren’t in heaven.  And there are a lot of Congregationalists who will be in heaven.  There will be a lot of Catholics who will be in heaven.  The watershed is Jesus Christ.  But not intellectually; owning him.  I don’t know what word you want to use.  Putting your confidence in him alone for salvation.  To some extent a lot of [the other aspects of Christianity, baptism, etc.] are important.  But they are not the primary.  A lot of them deal with types of Church governance.  A lot of them deal with baptism. A lot of them deal with communion.

Peter: Is it fair to say that those are all efforts to help people reach that watershed?

Jerry: Yes. That’s fair.

Q: Why is Eternal Life so important? A: Because the alternative is Hell.

Peter: Why is this eternal life so important?

Jerry: What is your answer for death?  What’s going to happen?  See eternity...the Bible says our lifespan is 60 - 80 years.  You know so as you look at creation or the world or whatever, that is a drop in the bucket.  So what about life?

David: This is not a heaven and hell distinction? This is an eternal life distinction?

Jerry: Well, eternity is either heaven or hell.  So if you are not “in Christ” you have no way to stand before a holy judge.  So Jesus is our advocate.

Peter:  So can I get this simplistic?  So in your view everyone who cannot stand before God and say “I’m in Christ.” is also looking forward to eternity but it is an eternity of hell. And the only way to have an eternity of heaven is through this evangelical path.

J: Yes.  This we call the Gospel.

The End Times

We engage in a discussion about The End Times.  Dave and I have heard several people (Assemblywoman Mary Felzkowski (Blog: Breakfast Club), Sandy (Blog: A Mixed (Religiously) Couple) hint at the End Days possibly explaining the extreme weather and other issues our nation and world face.  Jerry initial reaction is very circumspect when I ask him point blank about “The End Days.”

Jerry: The honest answer is we don’t know.  Throughout history people have [prophesied the End Days] and it has been wrong.  Now there are signs and you need to be careful in interpreting.

Peter: Let’s start with this, “The End Times will occur?”

Jerry: Now the problem is, and I’m again really getting into, the complex Theology. Some evangelical Christians think that we are in the End Times, the church age.  Another group believes in the dispensational view.  There are seven [dispensations] and the end times are the final.  And those are all divided by what we call pre millennial, post millennial return of Christ, or A millennial - which is the 1000 year reign of Christ. So is it literal or is it not?  We’ve stopped debating those ideas for ordination, and just let them be.  The key question is that Jesus is returning again. Okay, that is for sure.  So, however you want to form your theology is up to you.  So when your friends are saying the End Times…  Is it because that things are getting so bad. The waves and the floods and all of that and a sense from our perspective that things are getting worse and worse. [But] you can make the same argument throughout history.

Peter: What is interesting to me is that this is really a pivotal mindset.  If is all going to crash and burn anyway, and I’m on my way to eternal life, I have very little stake in preventing the crash and burn.  And it really doesn’t matter if one person says it is tomorrow and another says it is in 1000 years.  That mindset it is interesting to understand because it influences the way I think about the planet we are on. And what its fate is.

We are not Fatalists

Jerry: Well, we’re not fatalists.  We have a mandate from God, from Jesus that we are representatives of him in whatever time we find ourselves.  The apostle Peter writes two letters.  Those are in the context of the first suffering church.  He said: “Be Holy.”  To have passive resistance.  From the pulpit this is what we try to teach. These truths.  It isn’t a fatalism.  We have a tremendous mandate and purpose to glorify God in these days, to represent Him.  We need to shine our light.  Hopefully you’ve been able to see it in my life.  Hopefully you’ve been able to see it in the people I’ve introduced you to.

Peter: Personally, how do you see the End Days? Are we in them?  Is it relevant and important to understand?

Jerry: I’m not going to go there.  Its relevant in two ways: 1. That I should always live my life with an eternal perspective. Live for the things that count.  I would say for the things that have eternal value.  In other words I’m in the fourth quarter of my life.  My life group (a small group ministry at Grace Church) is the "4th quarter group."  We talk about that. What are the things that really matter? You know even young people are so caught up in their jobs and all of that and [when preaching and pastoring] I try to come down on relationships.  Starting with the trinity, that God has always been in relationship. And that that is one of the essences of life.  And so what did God do ? He invited us into relationship.  He gave us a family for relationships.  What else did he do? He gave us a community called the Church.  It’s all relationships.  So that is an example of what is eternally significant.  I then view my life in that perspective.

Peter: You are in your fourth quarter. Your grandchildren are in their first quarter.  When you think of your life with an eternal perspective, are you thinking of the fourth quarter of your grand childrens’ lives?

Jerry: No, no.  I’m trying to teach them even in the first quarter you need to have an eternal values. Don’t get caught up in world values.  I’ll give you an example.  (Via his phone, Jerry introduces us to one of his grandsons who re-sells high end tennis shoes on eBay.)  I’m trying to teach him; what are you going to do with your money?  You need to be a kingdom investor.  It forms our worldview, our lifestyle.  Everything. An eternal perspective.

Where is Jesus’ life and teaching in the Apostle’s Creed?

Next we turn to The Apostle’s Creed.  It has come up in several conversations (Arn Blog: Milwaukee Urban Minister).  For Arn belief in this Creed determined if you could be a part of his BASICS and Genesis programs.  And for us it always seemed curious that the Apostles Creed skips entirely over the actual life and teaching of Jesus while he lived.  It goes straight from being born to the virgin Mary to suffering under Pontius Pilate.  So we wanted to know where this Creed and the life and teaching of Jesus-the-man fits in Jerry’s theology. There are several versions depending on your denomination.  Here is a Lutheran version from Wikipedia.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen

Jerry: Jesus is central. The virgin birth.  [The Apostle's Creed] is an important doctrine because if you don’t have it then there is no deity.

Peter: That is really what it is about, establishing him as a deity.

Jerry: And a man.  So this is a tough questions.  He is the unique God-Man.  Like the Trinity it is hard to understand.  We don’t have time… I always say, “If you can explain those to me then let me know.” There are some mysteries in my faith.  I’m okay with some mystery because I don’t want to put God in a box.  I have enough reliable Truth revelation that I know the essentials of being a Christ follower.

Jerry then tries to put the Creed in context.  “The critical point of the Apostle's Creed, then is the watershed for Jesus for salvation.”  But it is only part of the whole package. He continues, “So that does not negate the Gospels or any of that; the teachings of Jesus.  Elmbrook (Arn’s church outside of Milwaukee) is going to preach the whole Counsel of God.  They’ll preach through the Gospels.  And the teaching of Jesus and the lifestyle of Jesus.  What does it look like, what does it mean for leadership.  What does it mean for marriage.  What does it mean for living as a citizen, in community, your inner life.  The joy, the peace, the contentment."

Jesus’ Life and Teachings in a Year of Sermons

Peter: When you lay out your preaching for the year, what percent of the weeks are you talking about the teachings of Jesus, what he did and said during his lifetime? And what percent of the time are you talking about other things, ACTS (Jerry’s prayer method, see below), the Old Testament?  And "why", is the underlying question.

Jerry approaches his answer to this question by laying out his sermon plan in a typical year.  (Reader, you can skip ahead...but woven through his answer is how Jesus’ life and teachings are woven into Jerry’s messages from the pulpit.)

Start the year with Prayer

Jerry: I look at the year and I came to the realization down the road of my pastorate that prayer was the essential spiritual discipline.  So I feel that prayer encompases everything else.  So I start the year out with a series on prayer.  Now I come at it many different ways.  For example Jesus’ teachings on prayer, Jesus’ life of prayer.  Those would be two different years.  Prayers in the Bible, Old Testament, and New Testament. 

The Vision of the Church

Jerry: Then secondly I would somewhere in the spring to flesh out -- and I don’t know how many sermons I’d do on it -- the vision of the Church.  If you are going to be a leader, the vision and mission of the Church. You’ve got to keep those in front of them.  I would do that in many different ways. Talking, explaining, giving testimony and so forth. Yes, Jesus’ teachings are critical. “Make disciples.” All of that comes from the word of Jesus, that is from the Gospels. And you can’t teach that without living it.  So if that is what you’re preaching and your life reflects it “let your light shine so men can see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven. All of that sticks together seamlessly.  That is why you go to seminary to learn all of that...I hate to say...to “package it” and “deliver it” to feed the congregation.

Special Topics of Need

Jerry: At that point [in the year] I have some room. So for example if we need to raise money for a new building I need to teach the people stewardship.  Stewardship is a huge topic, of the environment, of finances, of time.  So I’ll just pastorally try to know the needs of the congregation.  So those are a couple of things for the spring, the vision and maybe a significant “needs” or areas we need to reinforcing.

Holy Week

Jerry:  Then when we get into the Holy Week I’ll preach for up to four weeks that topic.

The Family...Between Mother’s and Father’s Day

Jerry: My personal mission statement is to build the family and build the church.  That is why God called me.  So I really believe in the family.  I’ve always preached on the family, usually from Mother’s Day to Father’s Day.  And those are some of the best received sermons.  People want to know how to be in their family. 

Summer -- a time for stand alone Sermons

Jerry: Summer is a new thing.  Now you can’t build on consecutive days because people are gone all the time. So I try to preach some stand alones.  I’ll preach some of the Psalms. I can preach the book of Judges, I’ve done that.  You can really stand alone there. You can do the short books of the New Testament. That’ll stand alone.

Fall -- a BIG book

Jerry: Then in the Fall is my extended book time.  From the beginning of September to Advent I’ll preach through a book.  And I’ll alternate [years] between the New and Old Testament.

Advent

Jerry: Then advent.

Prayer

We hear a lot from Jerry and Arn about prayer.  So we want to unpack HOW evangelicals pray, WHAT they pray for, and WHY.  We start by asking Jerry if there is any overlap between prayer, meditation and mindfulness.  Jerry asks us to clarify what “mindfulness” means.  Dave offers that it is being “present,” “centered” in a moment.

Are Mindfulness and Meditation the same as Prayer?

Jerry: Absolutely there is an overlap. We call these the spiritual disciplines.  My role as a pastor is to teach people the spiritual disciplines. The purpose is so that Christ might be formed in you in a greater measure.  Some people say, “I pray and I read the Bible”. And I say, “Don’t give me that spiritual merit badge.”  If you don’t do these you are in peril of what life is going to throw at you.  You’re going to have problems at home, in the workplace.  So what we do is practice these disciplines so Christ can be formed in us and we can be Christ-like in all that we do. Now some of those disciplines that we preach you should do every day.  You should start your day with them.  Most of our Elders they do that and they model it for the congregants.  My thinking of leadership: You lead by example.


Jerry:  Here is the distinction [between mindfulness and prayer].  Centering? Yes. Prayer?  Yes. Meditation? Yes.  What was the word you were using? Mindfulness? Yes. It is centered and about God.  So if you hold a meditation on...it’s about God as he has revealed himself in the scriptures and in Christ.  So as we do meditation the object of all of that is God.  It is not ourselves, we want to be free of ourselves.  I believe in the dignity of man and he is created in God’s image.  But I also believe in the depravity of man.  You don’t have to go far to see that.  So that is why [prayer, meditation, etc.] is about inner self and making myself better.  I have a message that talks about 2nd Corinthians 3:18, beholding or reflecting on Christ, we are transformed and transformed and transformed. It is the whole idea of worshiping Christ; there is the power of change when you are born again.  And it is never finalized until we are ready to go to heaven. We are all in that process.

Prayer Calendars and The Prayer Discipline

We’ve run across several prayer calendars.  We were given a monthly long calendar in Arn’s office (Blog: Milwaukee Urban Minister) and heard Craig (Blog: Evangelical Insurance Agent) talk about Jerry’s.  So we ask Jerry to explain how they work.

Jerry: Yeah, I wrote the prayer calendar for the team going to Bolivia. And we do sent it out to people.  That is not their complete prayer life.  That is how they can remember and pray for us in Bolivia. So I wrote each day what we are going to do and what to pray for.

I then ask Jerry to explain what praying is.  And what is a human’s role when God knows what is going to happen.  I give an example of Pastor Sam’s (See Blog post on Hope Community Church) hip surgery.  In response to Dave’s comment, “in case God misses something” Jerry responds, “God is not going to miss anything.”  

Jerry: Well the reality is that prayer is a mystery.  We need to come to terms with that. The Bible says, “My ways are not your ways my ways are higher than your ways.”  The Bible says over and over again that we should be praying. Prayer is powerful and effective.  Jesus said to pray.  He chastised the Disciples in the garden of Gethsemane for falling asleep when they should be praying.  James says, “You have not because you ask not.”  So the predominance of scripture is to pray.  So, I’m going to [pray] rationally, as best I can understand it, but more importantly I’m going to do what Jesus tells, what the scripture tells me to do. One of the great values of prayer is that prayer changes us.  It doesn’t necessarily “change the circumstance” of what we are praying for.  God wants us to pray for the circumstances and basically become more  “Godly,” “Christ like”, “Closer to God.”  With the confidence that God is always sovereign, in control and he knows what he is doing. But his ways are higher than my ways, I’m not always going to understand it.  

Jerry then uses an analogy to help convey his explanation.  “It it is like a tapestry, our prayers.  We only see the underside of that tapestry. All the knots and so forth.  But on the other side in heaven it is a beautiful thing that God is painting, is doing.”
“We need to understand that some of the very formative areas of life are hardship and difficulty.  The problem with some Christianity is that they offer a suffering-free religion.  We have persecuted Churches around the world who are the most Godly people. I am humbled.  I have an App on my phone [which I refer to when I pray]. These are the suffering, persecuted, Churches.  When we get to heaven they’ll be at the head of the line.”

Peter: Is this a specific persecuted Church you are talking about?

Jerry: There are a whole bunch of these persecuted Churches.  I can pull my app out and show you who we’re supposed to pray for today. 

Prayer by A.C.T.S.

Jerry now moves into his recommended prescription for a good prayer.

Jerry: So let me put prayer into a simplified version.  When we teach people to pray we use ACTS.

• Adoration, pray to God for who he is.  In his character and what He has done.  It is an adoration.  Praise, worship. Whatever word you want to use.
  
• “C” is Confession. That is being honest before God.  Confessing our sins.  The Bible says that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.  Because of what Christ has done he can do that. As we confess it.  By the way.  Harboring sin in your life doesn’t work if you are living with harbored sin, resentment, bitterness -- all of these things that many of us are easily caught up into.  
  
• “T” is Thanksgiving.  What a great virtue to have in life.  To view life with thanksgiving.  There is always something to be thankful for., always. Gratitude. So thank God for something. If nothing else, for who he is.
  
• Lastly is Supplication.  Our request.  

Jerry goes on to share the outline of his upcoming sermon at Grace Church, for the first time since his retirement several years ago.

Jerry:  And we need to be in healing.  We’ve [Grace Church] been punched in the gut many times as a Church. And so the leadership thinks that my presence may help with this.  My thought [for my sermon] is, and I’ve always preached this with prayer: we talk about it too much and we don't do it enough.  Everybody is for prayer.  But as a pastor, nobody does it, including myself.  There are a few prayer giants, there are only a few. So, I like to have a corporate experience of prayer.  I’m going to pastorally preach on a passage on prayer and lead the church in a time of prayer, which will take numerous forms.  One of which will be coming forward, if you are comfortable, and kneeling at the altar. Others may be kneeling in their pew.  I’m going to have several stations for healing, each [station] will have Elders.  Another one will be to talk to someone and have someone pray over you.  So we can experience this corporately.  I think that when we are experiencing God that way there is a sense of unity and healing in who we are as a community of faith.

Back to Sam’s Hip

Peter: To take one example, with Sam’s hip. You're making a supplication to God to look after the healing, and no infection, and the surgeon is competent.  And that benefits you, like you said, in the sense that you are connecting with Sam, you are building that community.  It helps Sam because he is feeling your concern and care and love in you bring it up.  What else is going on there?

Jerry: It reinforced our feeling in God.  That he is in charge.  And that is where we are confident in.  Now, God’s will may not be that. The surgeon may be a dufus and make a mistake. It happens; mistakes happen. Drunk drivers hit you.  But that doesn’t mean I don’t pray for safety.  It doesn’t mean I don’t pray for the skills of the surgeon.

Peter: That is a way of acknowledging that it is in God’s hands.

Jerry: However, You (God) told us to come and pray, to cry out in our time of need.  Here I am, I am depending on You.  But if it doesn’t go this way you are still in charge.  Because the Bible says he is sovereign in all things.  He will work good for those who love Him or are called or willing to be conformed to his purposeses. So we really believe in the idea that not us, but God, through whatever circumstances, is going to do something good.  And if you die of cancer and you’ve been praying to him, well the prayer has been answered. Because your body is in heaven.  I spoke with my brother last night.  He has cancer down in Texas.  He’s not going to make it.  He’s dying.  But we’re still praying.

The Media and its treatment of Evangelicals

The final topic (we have time for) is the (biased) Media.

Peter: So we hear a lot about the media being unfair. From everybody.  But I was really struck yesterday when you said the media has been unfair to Fundamentalists...I mean evangelicals.

Jerry: Yeah, don’t say Fundamentalists.  That is a naughty word.

Peter: evangelicals...or to you personally.  I think you feel in this community (Racine) that you haven’t gotten your fair share, that Tony (Racine’s UU minister, see Blog: Breakfast with Tony) gets all of the press, that you don’t get any press.  What’s going on there.  Why is it?

Jerry: I think as Don (Evangelical lawyer with whom we have just had lunch) said, I think the media is biased.  And I think they are living out their agenda.  I’m not a “Trump” in this.  When they did the article on Reince Priebus (one of Jerry’s longtime parishioners) I did suggest to them and I walked them through and they did a phenomenal job on Reince.

Peter: This is the local [Racine] Daily Journal?

Jerry: Yes.  I said here’s the story that no one in the country is going [to know].  There is a ten year gap here in Racine in Reince’s life. I can give that to you.  So he checked all of his sources and was good with his quotes and everything.  I don’t want to bash [the media] altogether .  I think the media is basically biased.  I lost trust in them early on.  So I don’t hate the media.  And maybe I overstated it, that I’m a beleaguered evangelical. I’m not any more.  I’m out of the loop.  But there was a day when I was pastoring.

Peter: Why do you think they are biased?

Jerry: Because they have their agenda.

Peter: What is their agenda?

Jerry: It’s a progressive agenda.

Peter: And a progressive agenda means anti-evangelical?

Jerry: Part of it.  

Peter: And why is that?

Jerry: Why is it nationally?

Peter: Is it nationally? You believe it is nationally.  Why would the New York Times of the Daily Journal be biased against evangelicals?

Jerry: Alright.  Let me put it this way.  If evangelicals are true, you’re [the media...and maybe Dave and I] going to have to do some introspection and changes in your life. And people aren’t willing to do that.  It’s countering your world view.  Now you can mask that in many ways.  You can say we are narrow minded, we’re dumb, we’ve got no scholarship.  Now that was the old line but now we have a lot of smart people now studying the Bible and the case for Christ and all of that.  So if you really come to terms, and be an honest seeker, you’ve got to come to the conclusion that C.S.Lewis did: Either Christ is a Liar, a Lunatic or he is the Lord.  So I don’t think people want him to be Lord.  It’s a big thing.  It is about the surrender of my life to an authority, call it a higher power if you want.  I think that is what we are made for.  I believe in a creator who did that.  I believe that there is a vacuum within us.

Peter: So essentially the media is threatened because it is so huge and scary.

Jerry: Yes it is.  The media is threatened in their basic assumptions in life.

Peter: And you are including Fox and Breitbart News.  There is a lot of media...

View of Racine Harbor - outside of our window during this conversation with Pastor Jerry

Jerry: No, they are fair….  Fox News, I listen to Bret Baier but I can’t stand Hannity or Martha MacCallum.  I get my news from Bret Baier because he’ll report it well enough. Breitbart, I’m not there.  As Don said, it cuts both ways.  We have lost the center ground of journalism.  Don said it much better than I do.  In my observation we (evangelical Christians) haven’t gotten a fair [treatment].  I gave you the one example of what was going on in Racine.  200 to 300 middle school kids doing this phenomenal (service project supported by evangelical Christians) … the reason I know is I’m good friends with the person who is leading that.  How in the world could they miss that and put a story about 8 - 10 college students on the front page?  It’s just beyond me.

Peter: And your interpretation on why that got on the front page [instead of the middle school story] is because the media is threatened by what evangelical Christianity means.

Jerry: Or, yeah.  Why make evangelical Christianity look good.  Okay?  That is a win/win.

Final Thoughts (on Unitarians and the evangelical world view)

Jerry: Now I’ve told you before.  Tony Larson (Racine UU Minister) is the real deal in my book.  No character assassination with him, at all.  I respect him and admire him as I do my brother-in-law Brady, Universal Unitarianism.  And I’ve known them forever.  Like I do with Anna (Brady’s step daughter and Dave and my friend who put us in touch with Pastor Jerry).  Like I do with you.  You guys are wonderful people.  It is not an issue with character.  But, this is our world view.  This is my Truth view.  So ultimately, if I am right, you have to decide that, then it has to revolutionize your life.  I’m not here to convince you.  That is a mistake that some evangelicals do.  That is not our job.  Only God convinces. The Bible says that.

--Peter